1. Joined
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    03 Sep '07 05:202 edits
    This is, for the most part, for those of faith and is in large part influenced by the compelled to change thread.

    Lets say there is a functioning drunk who says he is a "Christian" within the church. In fact, he is a church leader who lives openly as a functioning drunk. When I say functioning drunk, I mean that he holds down a job and does not hurt any one. He never behaves irresponsibly by doing such things as driving drunk, rather, he simply wastes the better part of his life drunk. However, when confronted with this problem, he becomes beligerant and unrepentant. In fact, he says that without alcohol he could never be happy and that he has never had a happy day sober. What should be done within the church if anything? Also, is it even a sin what he is doing to himself?

    This thread was also partially influenced by someone I know who is a functioning drunk. Granted, he is not a person of faith.
  2. Cape Town
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    03 Sep '07 07:53
    Originally posted by whodey
    This is, for the most part, for those of faith and is in large part influenced by the compelled to change thread.

    Lets say there is a functioning drunk who says he is a "Christian" within the church. In fact, he is a church leader who lives openly as a functioning drunk. When I say functioning drunk, I mean that he holds down a job and does not hurt any ...[text shortened]... nfluenced by someone I know who is a functioning drunk. Granted, he is not a person of faith.
    Self harm would probably be considered sinful in Christianity and so would a failure to utilize talents to their fullest etc.
    However, the question of whether or not other Church members should do something about it is the real issue.
    I don't know if you think that sins can be graded or not but drunkenness is probably lower on the list of severity than many other sins that many of the other Church members are committing. It also depends on why you would confront him.
    My suggestion is that you should love your neighbor and try to help the person as much as you can (whether he is Christian or not) solely for his own good (because you love him) and not because you believe his actions to be sinful etc.
    As with the compelled to change thread, if you confront drunks or homosexuals by discrimination / expulsion etc you are hardly being loving and are judging instead of helping.
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    03 Sep '07 10:10
    Originally posted by whodey
    This is, for the most part, for those of faith and is in large part influenced by the compelled to change thread.

    Lets say there is a functioning drunk who says he is a "Christian" within the church. In fact, he is a church leader who lives openly as a functioning drunk. When I say functioning drunk, I mean that he holds down a job and does not hurt any ...[text shortened]... nfluenced by someone I know who is a functioning drunk. Granted, he is not a person of faith.
    First Whodey I think the fact that you called the guy a drunk says that you are a bit biased. From your description I would call him a 'responsible drinker'. He does not seem to be doing anything really wrong. A more serious offense in a church are those people who overeat and fall asleep during the sermon.
  4. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Sep '07 12:52
    Originally posted by whodey
    This is, for the most part, for those of faith and is in large part influenced by the compelled to change thread.

    Lets say there is a functioning drunk who says he is a "Christian" within the church. In fact, he is a church leader who lives openly as a functioning drunk. When I say functioning drunk, I mean that he holds down a job and does not hurt any ...[text shortened]... nfluenced by someone I know who is a functioning drunk. Granted, he is not a person of faith.
    I mean that he holds down a job and does not hurt any one.WHITEY

    He is hurting his own body and destroying his own brain cells thus damaging the body he was given.
  5. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Sep '07 12:54
    Originally posted by whodey
    This is, for the most part, for those of faith and is in large part influenced by the compelled to change thread.

    Lets say there is a functioning drunk who says he is a "Christian" within the church. In fact, he is a church leader who lives openly as a functioning drunk. When I say functioning drunk, I mean that he holds down a job and does not hurt any ...[text shortened]... nfluenced by someone I know who is a functioning drunk. Granted, he is not a person of faith.
    he simply wastes the better part of his life drunk. WHODEY

    ...this would be a sin then because his habit prevents him from living his life to the fullest in christ. Also , alcohol is a known depressant so a man who is deliberately depressing himself is inducing negative thoughts , this would need to be challeneged gently by a church leader.
  6. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Sep '07 12:56
    Originally posted by whodey
    This is, for the most part, for those of faith and is in large part influenced by the compelled to change thread.

    Lets say there is a functioning drunk who says he is a "Christian" within the church. In fact, he is a church leader who lives openly as a functioning drunk. When I say functioning drunk, I mean that he holds down a job and does not hurt any ...[text shortened]... nfluenced by someone I know who is a functioning drunk. Granted, he is not a person of faith.
    Also, is it even a sin what he is doing to himself? WHODEY

    Absolutely it is because there are clear rational and pschological reasons to call it self harm and therefore sinful.
  7. Standard memberknightmeister
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    03 Sep '07 12:57
    Originally posted by whodey
    This is, for the most part, for those of faith and is in large part influenced by the compelled to change thread.

    Lets say there is a functioning drunk who says he is a "Christian" within the church. In fact, he is a church leader who lives openly as a functioning drunk. When I say functioning drunk, I mean that he holds down a job and does not hurt any ...[text shortened]... nfluenced by someone I know who is a functioning drunk. Granted, he is not a person of faith.
    However, when confronted with this problem, he becomes beligerant and unrepentant. WHODEY

    I doubt whether this man was born with an alcohol addiction so therefore he would not be able to argue that drinking was natural for him as part of his identity (as a homosexual could)
  8. Cape Town
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    03 Sep '07 13:27
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I mean that he holds down a job and does not hurt any one.WHITEY

    He is hurting his own body and destroying his own brain cells thus damaging the body he was given.
    That was WHODEY you quoted not WHITEY by the way.

    The real question is to what extent should church members/leaders criticize / assist / advise their members when it comes to acts that they believe are sinful. For example do church leaders say anything to members that they know to be regular liars? Would you 'have a chat' with someone you know to be a regular law breaker? Maybe he just pirates music CDs for his own personal enjoyment but that is illegal and probably sinful.
    Which sins need special attention and which warrant expulsion from the church?
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    03 Sep '07 15:011 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Self harm would probably be considered sinful in Christianity and so would a failure to utilize talents to their fullest etc.
    However, the question of whether or not other Church members should do something about it is the real issue.
    I don't know if you think that sins can be graded or not but drunkenness is probably lower on the list of severity than ...[text shortened]... discrimination / expulsion etc you are hardly being loving and are judging instead of helping.
    Well said. It is still a sin no matter the severity of the sin yet it is there for all to see nonetheless. The person in question should be confronted, however, as I have pointed out, he has been confronted regarding the issue and has been not only unresponsive to the correction but beligerant. He has made is clear that he has no intention of changing. How then does one proceed or should he be left alone as a church leader?
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    03 Sep '07 15:03
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    First Whodey I think the fact that you called the guy a drunk says that you are a bit biased. From your description I would call him a 'responsible drinker'. He does not seem to be doing anything really wrong. A more serious offense in a church are those people who [b]overeat and fall asleep during the sermon.[/b]
    So what defines a drunk? Good question. For me, a drunk is someone who needs to drink every day. I believe this is one of the defining criterea for AA. Unfortunatly, the drunk is usually the last one to come to this realization, if at all.
  11. Joined
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    03 Sep '07 15:06
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    He is hurting his own body and destroying his own brain cells thus damaging the body he was given.[/b]
    But what he is doing pleases the person in question. What gives you the right to judge him? Have you never hurt your own body by eating or drinking something not good for you? I'm sure you have so how is it you can stand in judgement over such conduct?
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    03 Sep '07 15:101 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister


    ...this would be a sin then because his habit prevents him from living his life to the fullest in christ. Also , alcohol is a known depressant so a man who is deliberately depressing himself is inducing negative thoughts , this would need to be challeneged gently by a church leader.[/b]
    Gently challenged? As I have said he has been gently challenged but wants no part of the correction. In fact, he has become beligerant when challenged, therefore, what to do? Should he remain as a church leader?

    Additionally, he has brought to light biblical verses for his defense. In fact, he has brought to the attention of the church leaders the fact that Jesus turned water into wine. Also, he brings up 1 Timothy 5:23 which says, "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

    His rebuttal is that apparently Christ was preventing those that drank the wine he created and Paul were also "depressing" themselves neurologically, therefore, why is it a sin?
  13. Joined
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    03 Sep '07 15:141 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    That was WHODEY you quoted not WHITEY by the way.

    The real question is to what extent should church members/leaders criticize / assist / advise their members when it comes to acts that they believe are sinful. For example do church leaders say anything to members that they know to be regular liars? Would you 'have a chat' with someone you know to be a ...[text shortened]... obably sinful.
    Which sins need special attention and which warrant expulsion from the church?
    All good questions!! I would add, what constitutes a law breaker? What law?

    Edit: I much prefer whodey over whitey. ThinkofOne has already accused me of bigotry and hypocrisy on the "compelled to change" thread so the last thing I need is to be accused of racism as well. 😛
  14. Standard memberRajk999
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    03 Sep '07 15:25
    Originally posted by whodey
    So what defines a drunk? Good question. For me, a drunk is someone who needs to drink every day. I believe this is one of the defining criterea for AA. Unfortunatly, the drunk is usually the last one to come to this realization, if at all.
    Defining what a drunk is, is difficult. I drink almost every day by the way, but Im not a drunk. Medical science now confirms a daily drink or 2 is good for your heart. So does Paul and Christ.

    I think its obvious you have some typical religious hang-ups Whodey, first gays now guys who take a harmless drink.

    So what about a woman in your church that needs to have a piece of chocolate every day to make her happy ?
  15. Standard memberRajk999
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    03 Sep '07 16:18
    Originally posted by whodey
    All good questions!! I would add, what constitutes a law breaker? What law?

    Edit: I much prefer whodey over whitey. ThinkofOne has already accused me of bigotry and hypocrisy on the "compelled to change" thread so the last thing I need is to be accused of racism as well. 😛
    A rose by any other name will smell just as sweet. 🙂
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