Concept of the Person

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum_en.html

From the Encyclical "Rerum Novarum" (1891)

Encyclical on Capital and Labour, Pope Leo XIII.

"33. There is another and deeper consideration which must not be lost sight of. As regards the State, the interests of all, whether high or low, are equal. The members of the working classes are citizens by nature and by the same right as the rich; they are real parts, living the life which makes up, through the family, the body of the commonwealth; and it need hardly be said that they are in every city very largely in the majority. It would be irrational to neglect one portion of the citizens and favor another, and therefore the public administration must duly and solicitously provide for the welfare and the comfort of the working classes; otherwise, that law of justice will be violated which ordains that each man shall have his due. To cite the wise words of St. Thomas Aquinas: "As the part and the whole are in a certain sense identical, so that which belongs to the whole in a sense belongs to the part."(27) Among the many and grave duties of rulers who would do their best for the people, the first and chief is to act with strict justice - with that justice which is called distributive - toward each and every class alike."

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum_en.html

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum_en.html

From the Encyclical "Rerum Novarum" (1891):

"We have insisted, it is true, that, since the end of society is to make men better, the chief good that society can possess is virtue. Nevertheless, it is the business of a well-constituted body politic to see to the provision of those material and external helps "the use of which is necessary to virtuous action."(28) Now, for the provision of such commodities, the labor of the working class - the exercise of their skill, and the employment of their strength, in the cultivation of the land, and in the workshops of trade - is especially responsible and quite indispensable.Indeed, their co-operation is in this respect so important that it may be truly said that it is only by the labor of working men that States grow rich. Justice, therefore, demands that the interests of the working classes should be carefully watched over by the administration, so that they who contribute so largely to the advantage of the community may themselves share in the benefits which they create-that being housed, clothed, and bodily fit, they may find their life less hard and more endurable."

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum_en.html

My last three posts dealt with your (Rwingo's) question about how the Church values the human person in the context of the relations between Capitol and Labour. The Encyclical, from which I took the quotes, was written in 1891 as an answer to the problems of those days and the rise of Socialism as a societal movement that gained in strength each day because of the appalling conditions the working classes had to work and live under.

There is an Encyclical from 1991 called "Centecimus Annus" by John Paul II, which commemorates the 100th anniversary of the Encyclical "Rerum Novarum".

I will read "Centesimus Annus" again and I hope I will soon be able to give you some relevant quotes from that Encyclical, which hopefully will shine their light on more recent questions concerning the relationship between Capitol and Labour, today's economic developments and the place therein of the Human Person.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
My last three posts dealt with your question about how the Church values the human person in the context of the relations between Capitol and Labour. The Encyclical, from which I took the quotes, was written in 1891 as an answer to the problems of those days and the rise of Socialism as a societal movement that gained in strength each day because of the appa ...[text shortened]... en Capitol and Labour, today's economic developments and the place therein of the Human Person.

Ivanhoe, with all due respect, the Catholic Church needs to come up with different names for these encyclicals. It's like they're saying "OK, we got a real problem with molesting young boys so let's name this one "Centesimus Annus" in honor of Father Jones who made the one hundred mark.

Originally posted by kirksey957
Ivanhoe, with all due respect, the Catholic Church needs to come up with different names for these encyclicals. It's like they're saying "OK, we got a real problem with molesting young boys so let's name this one "Centesimus Annus" in honor of Father Jones who made the one hundred mark.

I can understand David C or howardgee dragging in the minor abuse scandals into every post that mentions the word "Catholic". But what does your post have to do with the content of ivanhoe's?

And, btw, the Latin names of encyclicals and Church documents come from the first few words of the encyclical itself. But I'm sure you already knew that.

Peace,

LH

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I can understand David C or howardgee dragging in the minor abuse scandals into every post that mentions the word "Catholic". But what does your post have to do with the content of ivanhoe's?

And, btw, the Latin names of encyclicals and Church documents come from the first few words of the encyclical itself. But I'm sure you already knew that.

Peace,

LH

No, I didn't know that. I don't think my response had anything to do with Ivanhoe's content.

Do you still believe it was a "minor abuse scandal"?

Originally posted by kirksey957
No, I didn't know that. I don't think my response had anything to do with Ivanhoe's content.

Do you still believe it was a "minor abuse scandal"?

The cases that received the most publicity involved victims under 18, so, yes, I think it was a minor-abuse scandal.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
The cases that received the most publicity involved victims under 18, so, yes, I think it was a minor-abuse scandal.

As you may know, I'm getting in to snake handling these days. I'm doing my homework and research so when the time comes for me to meet my Scriptural duties I will hopefully have the right spirit with me to protect me. I came across the story of a snake handling preacher that had a somewhat contentious relationship with his wife. He forced her to be bitten several times and then when she collapsed he urinated on her. She was pregnant with their child. She lived. She wasn't a minor so he got 99 years in the Alabama penetentiary.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
My last three posts dealt with your (Rwingo's) question about how the Church values the human person in the context of the relations between Capitol and Labour. The Encyclical, from which I took the quotes, was written in 1891 as an answer to the problems of those days and the rise of Socialism as a societal movement that gained in strength each day because ...[text shortened]... en Capitol and Labour, today's economic developments and the place therein of the Human Person.

The truth be told, Ivanhoe, Encyclical quotes bore me. Ever since the time of Constantine, the church has been a staunch defender of the status quo in every region. It is true that there have been many within the church pushing for change (like the late Bishop Romero in El Salvador), but the church itself has never been one to budge unless everyone else around it has already done so.

Instead of copying and pasting more lengthy Encyclicals, I would be much more interested in hearing your personal feelings about the discepancy between their words and their actions.

By the way, my congratulations go out to Jesuit Father George Coyne, director of the Vatican Observatory, for reminding the world that evolution is not incompatible with Catholicism. As loathe as I am to congratulate Catholicism on anything, I am compelled to do so in this instance.

Originally posted by kirksey957
As you may know, I'm getting in to snake handling these days. I'm doing my homework and research so when the time comes for me to meet my Scriptural duties I will hopefully have the right spirit with me to protect me. I came across the story of a snake handling preacher that had a somewhat contentious relationship with his wife. He forced her to be b ...[text shortened]... h their child. She lived. She wasn't a minor so he got 99 years in the Alabama penetentiary.

Think they'd have given him 100 if she were?

Originally posted by rwingett
The truth be told, Ivanhoe, Encyclical quotes bore me. Ever since the time of Constantine, the church has been a staunch defender of the status quo in every region. It is true that there have been many within the church pushing for change (like the late Bishop Romero in El Salvador), but the church itself has never been one to budge unless everyone else aro ...[text shortened]... oathe as I am to congratulate Catholicism on anything, I am compelled to do so in this instance.

I'm sorry to hear that Encyclical quotes bore you. Moreover because reading Encyclicals is a very good way to get in touch with what the Church's doctrines are.

Rwingo: "Ever since the time of Constantine, the church has been a staunch defender of the status quo in every region."

Your memory is a bit selective, I'm afraid.

Rwingo: "I would be much more interested in hearing your personal feelings about the discepancy between their words and their actions."

If you have a particular case in mind I would like to suggest to open a new thread on this issue. I would like to keep this thread on topic ... if this is still possible on the RHP forums.

This thread's subject is the Roman Catholic Church's view of the "Concept of the Person".

Originally posted by rwingett
In what manner does communist ideology demand the subjection or subjugation of the self?

In communist thought, man is alienated from himself because of the distinguishing relationships that exist between men in society (e.g. classes, capitalist-labourer etc.) Hence, the solution to alienation was to achieve unity in thought and action - by force if necessary. Individuality threatens this unity and accentuates the alienation - and hence the self must be subjected to the society.

Originally posted by rwingett
The truth be told, Ivanhoe, Encyclical quotes bore me. Ever since the time of Constantine, the church has been a staunch defender of the status quo in every region. It is true that there have been many within the church pushing for change (like the late Bishop Romero in El Salvador), but the church itself has never been one to budge unless everyone else aro ...[text shortened]... oathe as I am to congratulate Catholicism on anything, I am compelled to do so in this instance.

I worked just about my whole adult life in the labor movement—shop steward, bargaining committee member, pension negotiator, labor educator. The problem, with respect to various church statements, seemed to be that management simply ignored them, even if we’re referring to something like Rerum Novarum and Catholic management. Somehow, it never seemed important when they were, for example, deleting Christmas as a holiday (along with every other paid holiday), and in the process of busting the union and raiding the pension plan.

Re Bishop Romero: right on!

Originally posted by vistesd
I worked just about my whole adult life in the labor movement—shop steward, bargaining committee member, pension negotiator, labor educator. The problem, with respect to various church statements, seemed to be that management simply ignored them, even if we’re referring to something like Rerum Novarum and Catholic management. Somehow, it never seemed impor ...[text shortened]... n the process of busting the union and raiding the pension plan.

Re Bishop Romero: right on!

What is it about B. Oscar Romero that most impresses you? (RW - this question is for you as well)

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I can understand David C or howardgee dragging in the minor abuse scandals into every post that mentions the word "Catholic".

meh...face it, your little enclave of psuedo-shamans was born from a culture that accepted pederastry as normal. Until Catholic priests stop abusing little children physically and mentally, it's all fodder for the cannon. None of these papal missives hold any real interest for me, and when you and The Hoe blather on as if these things are of any importance whatsoever, I like to point out the shortcomings of the source.

Problem with that?