Originally posted by Halitose
What "tells" it that it has to get across a river? You are hitting a brick wall here. Science functions within the parameters of causality -- there is always a cause. Unless you separate consciousness from the physical, the freedom of will that you probably consider yourself having is merely an illusion. If everything can be boiled down to a physical cause ...[text shortened]... se emotions that we are so proud of -- falling in love etc, etc, etc -- are pitiful delusions.

I was, as I'm sure you are aware, using an analogy. What causes it to want to get over the river? I don't know, maybe a sexy female computer on the other bank, or some type of food stuff.

If you are pragmatic, and you look at the whole range that of neural networks that nature has so fortunately provided us as examples, then you will see simple organisms like earthworms, with some cephalisation including a neural cluster, and increasing complexity through to the great apes, ourselves included. What we see is a concurrent increase in the complexity of behaviours exhibited. And yet, still the fundamentals stay the same. When you are hungry, do you not eat? You work, why? To get money to eat, drink, have a place to stay and a comfortable existance, to improve your status (why are sports cars sexy??) to get a better mate and leave more high quality progeny (or why have inheritence of wealth?). All of them improve your evolutionary 'fitness'.

Even some things like charity can be explained by evolutionary biology. You see, nowadays charity is nearly always a selfless act, however it was not always so. We evolved in small societies. Charity was a good thing then, for two reasons, one, these people in your group are probably relatives, by helping them you are (unconsciously) helping your genes in them, and two, when you have plenty to spare giving a little has little 'cost', but when you are in need getting that little is a great benefit. In small socieities these things would be remembered, and charity was far from altruistic. Even the ultimate expression of your 'free will' represents nothing more than an evolutionary throwback. Free will is merely the ability to see the bigger picture, to be pragmatic. We evolved big brains because it helped us secure food supplies and to outsmart the other guy to get the girl - free will itself is simply a kickback on that.

Tell me Hal, why do you put so much faith in free will?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I was, as I'm sure you are aware, using an analogy. What causes it to want to get over the river? I don't know, maybe a sexy female computer on the other bank, or some type of food stuff.

If you are pragmatic, and you look at the whole range that of neural networks that nature has so fortunately provided us as examples, then you will see simple org ...[text shortened]... is simply a kickback on that.

Tell me Hal, why do you put so much faith in free will?

Tell me Hal, why do you put so much faith in free will?

My philosophy on life requires mankind to be free agents.

Your lengthy and thoughtful post notwithstanding, my point still stands. If our consciousness is explicable by only physical processes - and our actions mere reactions to external stimuli, then we aren't free agents -- merely puppets on nature's string.

I contend that consciousness cannot be explained in purely physical processes. Our instincts are like keys to a piano -- our free-will a musician playing this instrument to the tune of our individual psyche -- the human spirit.

Originally posted by Halitose
[b]Tell me Hal, why do you put so much faith in free will?

My philosophy on life requires mankind to be free agents.

Your lengthy and thoughtful post notwithstanding, my point still stands. If our consciousness is explicable by only physical processes - and our actions mere reactions to external stimuli, then we aren't free agents -- merely puppe ...[text shortened]... l a musician playing this instrument to the tune of our individual psyche -- the human spirit.[/b]

Do you believe in God, Halitose? What kind of God? The kind that created this world with a purpose in mind?

Originally posted by stocken
Do you believe in God, Halitose? What kind of God? The kind that created this world with a purpose in mind?

Affirmative.

Originally posted by Halitose
[b]Tell me Hal, why do you put so much faith in free will?

My philosophy on life requires mankind to be free agents.

Your lengthy and thoughtful post notwithstanding, my point still stands. If our consciousness is explicable by only physical processes - and our actions mere reactions to external stimuli, then we aren't free agents -- merely puppe ...[text shortened]... l a musician playing this instrument to the tune of our individual psyche -- the human spirit.[/b]

Perhaps consciousness cannot be explained by purely physical and chemical phenomenon. However most of it can.
What about genes that predispose a person to certain behaviours (i.e depression, gambling)? Can you regard a person carrying these genes as a free agent? And then considering the medications which rectify this behaviour, when does the "metaphysical consciousness" come in.
If these behaviours can be explained by genes and proteins, why can't all?
So far you have not tendered any tenable evidence to substantiate your "philosophy".

Originally posted by Conrau K
What about genes that predispose a person to certain behaviours (i.e depression, gambling)?

I'd like to hear how your philosophy accounts for sociopaths.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
In the ID thread 'Chess Express' posted these statements (italics) in response to my questions / statements in a previous post ([b]bold).

The important thing here for you is to prove that the way the world is is as a result of god. We both know you cannot do that scientifically, and TOE is the most parsimonious argument.

Quan ...[text shortened]... t is impossible to mix chemicals in a lab and produce consciousness.


Thoughts anyone?[/b]

As I have stated before it is impossible to mix chemicals in a lab and produce consciousness.

Impossible is a strong word. How do you know this?

Originally posted by Halitose
Affirmative.

If God created us with a purpose in mind, he would have been much better off not giving us free will. Like when we create expert systems (ai-systems targeted on a specific problem like medicin diagnosis or playing chess), we want those systems to work for us to achieve a goal. We don't want them starting to question the motives for their existence and debating our (the creators) existence. Unless...

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I'd like to hear how your philosophy accounts for sociopaths.

What exactly needs to be explained?
If a severe disturbance occurs in the brain, then invariably there will be a corresponding change in behaviour (i.e. sociopathic).
Is it impossible to accept that all behaviours are the result of the interactions of neurons (which are the result of genes)?

Originally posted by Conrau K
What exactly needs to be explained?
If a severe disturbance occurs in the brain, then invariably there will be a corresponding change in behaviour (i.e. sociopathic).
Is it impossible to accept that all behaviours are the result of the interactions of neurons (which are the result of genes)?

Sorry, Conrau--I meant my question for Halitose.

At the same time, psychiatrists I have spoken to agree that sociopathy is usually due to a lack of affective nourishment (love) at a critical age rather than cerebral dysfunction. Bad luck on the child's part, especially since sociopath rehabilitation has about a 2% success rate.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Sorry, Conrau--I meant my question for Halitose.

At the same time, psychiatrists I have spoken to agree that sociopathy is usually due to a lack of affective nourishment (love) at a critical age rather than cerebral dysfunction. Bad luck on the child's part, especially since sociopath rehabilitation has about a 2% success rate.

The brain, Bosse, (hi there, how are you tonight?) is a very very complex system. More complex than any computer (nearly typed commuter - an interesting, but ultimately false, comparison) currently in existance (that I know of - one for all the conspiracy theorists there). The preception of love, fear, anger etc are all the experiences that your teaching thebrain. You're also teaching it logic as a child. If the brain learns that when things are bad go crazy, then that's just what it'll do as an adult. You get out what you put in - like any computer program.

I saw a doco a couple weeks back that looked at links between violent behaviour and brain function. The researchers featured noted a distinct decrease in cortex activity in people with a history of violent behaviour in comparison with 'normal' people when placed in a stressfull situation. These people were less able to control their impulses. Seems quite a conincidence, doesn't it (HAL, FREAKY) that this relationship between brain lack of functioning (don't like the word disfunction) and a defect in the conscious mind function. How do you explain that is mind and brain are divorced?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
The brain, Bosse, (hi there, how are you tonight?) is a very very complex system.

Even mine?

I just learn that cosmos really means system. The human being, of which the mind is part, is a microcosm.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Even mine?

I just learn that cosmos really means system. The human being, of which the mind is part, is a microcosm.

Huh? I never knew that - good stuff. I'll bear that in mind....

Yeah, don;t worry Bosse, even your brain is real complex - it just can't communicate too fast with only a 56k connection!

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Huh? I never knew that - good stuff. I'll bear that in mind....

I learnt it here: http://www.gnosis.org/valentinus.htm

I'm working on telepathy as a substitute for broadband, which probably won't arrive in this country until I'm gone.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
The brain is a very very complex system.

The preception of love, fear, anger etc are all the experiences that your teaching thebrain. You're also teaching it logic as a child. If the brain learns that when things are bad go crazy, then that's just what it'll do as an adult. You get out what you put in - like any computer program.
For the purpose of what, exactly? Natural selection uses natural exigencies as the impetus for changes within the organism, yet man has constructed an entirely artificial system to which only he must adapt. Why?