1. Cape Town
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    02 Dec '15 14:04
    Divegesters suicide thread got me wondering what posters beliefs are on the consequences of sin. Where would you say you fall:
    1. Those who receive Gods grace will go to heaven and those that do not will go to hell. How much anyone sinned is irrelevant to those outcomes.
    2. Same heaven and hell options but for those going to heaven there will be punishment for sin prior to entry.
    3. Sin may have an impact on whether or not you get to heaven.
    4. Sin will only have an impact on entry to heaven under certain circumstances eg if you are not a Christian or if you sin after your last confession.
    5. Sin will have consequences in this life.
    6. Something else.
  2. Standard membersonship
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    02 Dec '15 15:15
    "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened and another scroll was opened which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works. ... And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:12,15)


    I think that at the last judgment there will be those who will bring with them a book on Logical Fallacies. They may hope to bring the Divine proceedings on them to a grinding hault, perhaps indefinitely ?
  3. Cape Town
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    02 Dec '15 16:461 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    [quote] "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened and another scroll was opened which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works. ... And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of ...[text shortened]... hey may hope to bring the Divine proceedings on them to a grinding hault, perhaps indefinitely ?
    So if I read that correctly, some people will be judged based on their sins (but what happens to them is not specified) and others whose names are simply not in the book go straight to hell?
    So sins do have a consequence for some, but you haven't specified what that consequence is.

    Also, given that you are so fond of using logical fallacies are you perhaps practising for judgement day?
  4. Standard memberDeepThought
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    02 Dec '15 17:12
    Originally posted by sonship
    [quote] [b] "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened and another scroll was opened which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works. ... And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake ...[text shortened]... hey may hope to bring the Divine proceedings on them to a grinding hault, perhaps indefinitely ?
    That's quite an entertaining concept. So you think that lawyers and barrack room lawyers will not appear in the Book of Life and be cast into the Lake of Fire so the rest of the World's final judgement can happen in a reasonably quick and orderly fashion?
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    02 Dec '15 17:382 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So if I read that correctly, some people will be judged based on their sins (but what happens to them is not specified) and others whose names are simply not in the book go straight to hell?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As I read it, for judgment to be pronounced, may simply mean there no longer remains any obscurity or doubt about what a man has done.

    IE. "Yes, you were an adulterer" or "Yes, you were a thief." or "Yes, you actually did bear false witness against many." And then God examines if their name is recorded in "the book of life".

    While I may have questions myself about that day, the basics seem clear. One perishes there according to whether their name is in the book of life.

    And one is saved according to whether their name is in the book of life.

    So sins do have a consequence for some, but you haven't specified what that consequence is.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    For you and I it matters. Do you think it will not ?

    Also, given that you are so fond of using logical fallacies are you perhaps practising for judgement day?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    No. Given your fondness of hunting for them, I thought you might be the one rehearsing.

    I have no problem realizing that I have sinned. I also have no problems realizing that God's knowledge of every and all contributing factors about the matter are known with perfect clarity.

    And now, I suspect you will comb through this post and search for some inconsistency or logically weak argument. Right ?

    Sure you will.

    Here is where I think a person should start their reasonings about the matter of God's final judgment:

    " Come now and let us reason together, Says Jehovah, Though your sins are like scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are as red as crimson, They will be like wool." (Isaiah 2:18)


    I think that that is a good place to start my reasoning even though I could arrange some questions myself about grand cosmic schemes.

    Somehow, I came to realize that before God I was indeed in need of justification and redemption. That much was evident. And that God had made provision for that serious problem, also became evident.
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    02 Dec '15 17:533 edits
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    That's quite an entertaining concept. So you think that lawyers and barrack room lawyers will not appear in the Book of Life and be cast into the Lake of Fire so the rest of the World's final judgement can happen in a reasonably quick and orderly fashion?
    I plead guilty to trying to be too entertaining.

    This should elate twhitehead. He often wants to squeeze some kind of confession from me.

    Ok. Let me be serious. I think it will be amazing and surprising whose names are recorded in the book of life.

    Now, concerning efficiency of God at the last judgment. This is peculiar to me, that people who can imagine a multiverse of millions or even infinite number of universes could not also imagine a Creator for Whom carrying on a billion sessions simultaneously could not be possible.

    Maybe God will judge EVERYONE slatted to be there, simultaneously in one moment.

    Seriously, this is the least of His problems, Who upholds the universe by the word of His power.
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    02 Dec '15 18:372 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    My immediate thoughts on some of these:

    1. Those who receive Gods grace will go to heaven and those that do not will go to hell.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I can read of nowhere in the Bible where taking one's sinful nature to heaven would be something God would want. Unless the grace can transform us to be as Christ, there is no reason to be taken where we would not want to go in the first place.

    How much anyone sinned is irrelevant to those outcomes.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That can't be the case. Look at what Jesus said here:

    "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you go about the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one . you make him twice as much a son of Gehenna as yourself." (Matt. 23:15)


    Since Jesus spoke here of two condemned to Gehenna, and one being twice as worthy as the other. it seems degrees of responsibility exist with God somehow.


    2. Same heaven and hell options but for those going to heaven there will be punishment for sin prior to entry.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Bible does not speak of heaven as the final destination in eternity for anyone. And in the new universe, all the sons of God will be perfected to be a corporate expression of fully deified humanity.

    The process unto that state includes not only forgiveness but transformation in nature.

    3. Sin may have an impact on whether or not you get to heaven.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    When i read verses like Hebrews 12:14 I realize that transformation and sanctification must do their work in every part of my being.

    "Pursue peace with all men and sanctification, without which no one will see the Lord."


    His purpose calls for us being conformed dispositionally to the image of Christ. This is really the essence of the most basic epistle on Christian teching - Romans.

    "For if we being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son; much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Rom. 5:10)


    As to the past - reconciled to God through Christ's death.
    As to the present and future - saved in the realm of His available indwelling life.

    The FULL salvation is of both being reconciled by Christ's death judicially, and saved in His resurrection life "organically".


    4. Sin will only have an impact on entry to heaven under certain circumstances eg if you are not a Christian or if you sin after your last confession.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The destination of every son of God is to be presented positionally and dispositionally without blemish or spot before God. He is righteous and faithful to His covenant to present each believe pure and spotless before Him.

    He marked out this destiny beforehand and will carry it out. At most we may cause Him some delay only.

    " Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself ... "(Eph. 1:4,5a)


    His very covenant calls for Him to be able to present the church to Himself without any moral blemish or any such thing:

    " That He might sanctify her [the church], cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word,

    That He might present the church to Himself glorious, nit having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she would be holy and without blemish." (Eph. 5:26,27)


    5. Sin will have consequences in this life.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    In this life, sin has consequence. In the millennial kingdom some sons of God require extended discipline after the church age.

    By the time of the new universe in Revelation 21,22 the final New Jerusalem sees all the sons of God throughout the ages as matured and perfected.

    Christ came to be the Firstborn among many brothers. Every saved believer will arrive. We will not all arrive at the same time. But we will all arrive.

    Christ the High Priest is able to save us to the uttermost. He always lives forever to intercede for His redeemed people.

    " But He, because He abides forever, has His priesthood unalterable. Hence also He is able to save to the UTTERMOST, those who come forward to God through Him, since He lives always to intercede for them." (Heb. 7:24,25)


    The expression on Christ's face is full of radiant confidence that His life and nature will fully transform every believer in Him to be like Him.
  8. Cape Town
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    03 Dec '15 10:30
    Originally posted by sonship
    As I read it, for judgment to be pronounced, may simply mean there no longer remains any obscurity or doubt about what a man has done.
    So no consequences?

    For you and I it matters.
    Why does it matter?

    Do you think it will not ?
    It is well known that I am atheist.

    No. Given your fondness of hunting for them, I thought you might be the one rehearsing.
    So you think God uses logical fallacies?

    And now, I suspect you will comb through this post and search for some inconsistency or logically weak argument. Right ?

    Sure you will.

    Not so much logically weak but downright self contradictory. I really cannot tell what you are trying to say at all. At one point you seem to say sins have no consequence and at another you
    say they do. Which is it?
  9. SubscriberFMF
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    03 Dec '15 10:33
    Originally posted by sonship
    I think that at the last judgment there will be those who will bring with them a book on Logical Fallacies. They may hope to bring the Divine proceedings on them to a grinding hault, perhaps indefinitely ?
    Do you believe the purported revelation of the Christian God figure was a perfectly executed revelation which could not possibly have been more effective in convincing people of His existence?
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    03 Dec '15 12:23
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    For you and I it matters.

    tw: Why does it matter?

    ---------------------------------------

    Nihilism is a possible temporary reaction.

    Do you think it will not ?

    tw: It is well known that I am atheist.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    Why does it matter ?

    So you think God uses logical fallacies?

    ---------------------------------------------------

    I think He exposes the foolishness in the logic of atheists who take no stand on a belief but only ask questions.

    Not so much logically weak but downright self contradictory. I really cannot tell what you are trying to say at all.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    That's interesting as I have the same problem with your posts.
    Apparently, I'm not the only one.

    At one point you seem to say sins have no consequence and at another you say they do. Which is it?
    ------------------------------------------------------

    Of course they have consequences. Which consequences may be a point to explore.

    And you just did demonstrate that you would look for some inconsistency as I said you would.

    Now here is what I wrote.

    As I read it, for judgment to be pronounced, may simply mean there no longer remains any obscurity or doubt about what a man has done.

    IE. "Yes, you were an adulterer" or "Yes, you were a thief." or "Yes, you actually did bear false witness against many." And then God examines if their name is recorded in "the book of life".

    While I may have questions myself about that day, the basics seem clear. One perishes there according to whether their name is in the book of life.

    And one is saved according to whether their name is in the book of life.


    As you must have decided to ignore, I did not leave the impression that I myself adsolutely no questions about the last judgment.

    I don't think in the last moment before I leave this life I will simply look back over history and my own life and simply say - "Well, that was weird".

    I find real answers in knowing Christ and in the Bible.
  11. Standard membersonship
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    03 Dec '15 14:114 edits
    tw: Why does it matter?


    The atheist may say the righting of wrongs or the remedying of injustice DOES matter in some cases. But then he switches on apathy when it involves his own sins.

    In another thread you did voice your concern about the injustice of the exploitation of your country. At least I got the sense that you feel the iniquity against South Africa with the robbing of land and resources by others. It mattered. You did not shrug with a sense that it does not matter.

    A Christian like myself agrees that it matters yet this extends far beyond to even my own sins. The Bible says that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I cannot turn on "it matters" in limited cases meaningful to me and turn on "It doesn't matter" in other cases. Universally, it matters.

    The last judgment of Revelation 20 reveals that God will balance the moral books not only concerning exploitation of your personal interests but of the welfare of ALL human beings without exception.

    As an atheist you have to temporarily borrow the significance of moral in-equality from a Christian worldview. "A wrong should be righted" concerning some other person/s. But shrug "It doesn't matter" when your own life is on the balances.

    The last judgment reveals that it won't work that way. Books or scrolls contain the works of every sinner, not just those who victimized, for instance, your country.

    "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works." (Rev. 20:12)


    Now if you really don't believe that God exists to examine all the works of men, then I think it really doesn't matter. And there will be no ultimate accounting for what occurred to your country of South Africa nor concerning any other act of man for that matter - national or personal.
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    03 Dec '15 14:28
    Originally posted by FMF
    Do you believe the purported revelation of the Christian God figure was a perfectly executed revelation which could not possibly have been more effective in convincing people of His existence?
    First, I am not afraid to simple say God. I do not have to qualify it with such a phrase as "the Christian God figure". It is important for me to state that.

    Now to your question proper, as best as I understand it.

    I believe the revelation of the Bible is ADEQUATE.
    It is adequate for leading one to know God personally and intimately.

    God has a book of revelation called the Bible.
    And God has a book of revelation called Nature.

    Between the two we can come forward to the truth of God in some way. Since His knowledge of our circumstances is without error, omission of any important fact, and as crystal clear to Him as would be to an all-knowing Governor, I can see no injustice in Him.

    Rather than being surprised on the side of God's naivete I honestly expect to be amazed at His wisdom. I mean, perhaps a million times more knowledgeable and perceptive He will prove to be about every minute detail of each of our lives.

    Christ said that even the hairs on our head are numbered. To extrapolate that it means that if you selected one atom out of your body, God would know the precise number of that atom and where it belonged.

    We're dealing with God. He will not overlook or be mistaken about anything. So it is best to ask to be washed in the blood of Christ. And it is better to turn over our whole soul to His dispensation of His Holy Spirit.
  13. Standard memberDeepThought
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    03 Dec '15 15:57
    Originally posted by sonship
    I plead guilty to trying to be too entertaining.

    This should elate twhitehead. He often wants to squeeze some kind of confession from me.

    Ok. Let me be serious. I think it will be amazing and surprising whose names are recorded in [b] the book of life.


    Now, concerning efficiency of God at the last judgment. This is peculiar to me, that ...[text shortened]... Seriously, this is the least of His problems, Who upholds the universe by the word of His power.[/b]
    I wonder if "The Book of Life" refers to the list of those who will gain everlasting life or refers to those that have lived. It's just it seems that there are two judgements if first one has to be in the book and then one is judged. I'm wondering if those not listed in the book are demons in human form rather than real people?
  14. Cape Town
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    03 Dec '15 16:24
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    I'm wondering if those not listed in the book are demons in human form rather than real people?
    Which begs the question how are demons judged and are there consequences if they sin?
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    03 Dec '15 17:083 edits
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    I wonder if "The Book of Life" refers to the list of those who will gain everlasting life or refers to those that have lived. It's just it seems that there are two judgements if first one has to be in the book and then one is judged. I'm wondering if those not listed in the book are demons in human form rather than real people?
    I wonder if "The Book of Life" refers to the list of those who will gain everlasting life or refers to those that have lived. It's just it seems that there are two judgements if first one has to be in the book and then one is judged. I'm wondering if those not listed in the book are demons in human form rather than real people?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I had to read this three or four times to grasp your thought. And I am still not sure if I get it.

    However, some response:

    This book of life is called "of the Lamb". The Lamb is the Redeemer Jesus Christ for sure.

    " ... the book of life of the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev. 13:8b)


    Should we assume it is the Redeemer's book of life ?
    The Redeemer is God become a man.

    Before God was incarnated there was a mentioning of God's book by Moses and God.

    " Yet now, if You will forgive their sin - and if not, please blot me out of Your book which You have written.

    And Jehovah said to Moses, Who ever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." (Exodus 32:32,33)


    Do I know for sure that this is that same book of life which is the Lamb's in Revelation ? No, I do not know today, for sure. I think it is though.

    Now to your point about ALL who have lived being written in the book of life ? I don't see that. But I would agree that all who have lived the Bible does say something like they are "written" somewhere.

    David, speaking of his unformed substances still lying in the earth before he was born, were all "written" in a book before God.

    " My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in secret, Skillfully fashioned in the depths of the earth.

    Your eyes saw my unformed substance; And in You book all of them were written ..." (Psalm 139:15,16)


    This could be the book of life of those to receive eternal life.
    Or it could be a book of all who lived. I don't know.

    But it is shown here that God can look into the earth or in the stars and star dust and actually known every atomic particle which will eventually go into composing, ie. John Doe here and Jane Doe there.

    His awareness of our being and existence is without limit.
    Doesn't it make you want to love the Lord Jesus ? He is God become a man and laid down His life in love that we might be redeemed - saved and made sons of God.

    I stop here.
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