originally posted by rwingett
"The Skeptic's Annotated Bible has compiled a list of 434 contradictions in the bible. Are you claiming that none of these are really contradictions?"
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
–noun 1. the act of contradicting; gainsaying or opposition.
2. assertion of the contrary or opposite; denial.
3. a statement or proposition that contradicts or denies another or itself and is logically incongruous.
4. direct opposition between things compared; inconsistency.
5. a contradictory act, fact, etc.
Taken out of context anything can be made to appear as a contradiction.
rwingett, there are no contradictions in the Bible except for between inferior translations that fail to carry over the correct meaning or thought of any particular phrase or sentence from the original language.
To me, it is irrational, if there be a God, to think that whatever He communicated to man would be anything other than pure Truth without error. Not only would His communication be pure, but it would be recognisable by those who are His. That isn't to say that all believers believe everything God says.
On the contrary, some, if not most believers, are duped in one way or another into believing something about the Bible that isn't true.
Even me.
What is even more irrational to me is debating about the veracity of scripture with someone that doesn't believe God exists.
And why would someone that doesn't believe God exists want to debate about it with someone who does?
That, is a contradiction!
Originally posted by josephw😴
originally posted by rwingett
[b]"The Skeptic's Annotated Bible has compiled a list of 434 contradictions in the bible. Are you claiming that none of these are really contradictions?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html"
–noun 1. the act of contradicting; gainsaying or opposition.
2. assertion of the contrary or opposite; d ...[text shortened]... ve God exists want to debate about it with someone who does?
That, is a contradiction![/b]
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Originally posted by josephwIf you say that Sherlock Holmes had a companion named Moriarty, I'll argue that he didn't and I'll assert that his companion was Dr Watson.
originally posted by rwingett
[b]"The Skeptic's Annotated Bible has compiled a list of 434 contradictions in the bible. Are you claiming that none of these are really contradictions?"
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
–noun 1. the act of contradicting; gainsaying or opposition.
2. assertion of the contrary or opposite; d ...[text shortened]... ve God exists want to debate about it with someone who does?
That, is a contradiction![/b]
There is no contradiction to be derived by stating that none of these characters actually exist.
I agree that human ingenuity can contrive arguments to show that the apparent contradictions are superficial. But that is a result of the material we are dealing with, namely a set of quasi propositions which are systematically immune from disconfirmation.
If god is perfect and deals with us, and we are imperfect, then any apparent contradiction or anomaly must necessarily originate with us (by definition), but writing the Bible and interpreting the Bible are human activities, so your stance is not supported by your argument is it?
The fact that you pose the question as to why someone that doesn't believe God exists would want to debate about it with someone who does, suggests to me that you lack empathy or perhaps imagination.
A lot of the so called contradictions people point to in the Bible are only indications of the progressive revelation.
For example, a mother tells her one year old to pick up her food with her fingers to eat. At the age of two she tells her to use a spoon rather than her fingers.
And someone yells out "Contradiction !"
What the mother said at one stage of life was superseeded by something else as the child progressed in growth.
Originally posted by Lord Shark"If god is perfect and deals with us, and we are imperfect, then any apparent contradiction or anomaly must necessarily originate with us (by definition)..."
If you say that Sherlock Holmes had a companion named Moriarty, I'll argue that he didn't and I'll assert that his companion was Dr Watson.
There is no contradiction to be derived by stating that none of these characters actually exist.
I agree that human ingenuity can contrive arguments to show that the apparent contradictions are superficial. But th ...[text shortened]... about it with someone who does, suggests to me that you lack empathy or perhaps imagination.
True
".., but writing the Bible and interpreting the Bible are human activities, so your stance is not supported by your argument is it?"
The original autographs are dust. According to the Bible, it was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit to write exactly what God wanted written. We have copies of copies. Now, it would seem logical that in the course of time, without the guidance of God, that what was originally written would be full of errors, if not completely lost.
Why would God allow that to happen?
"The fact that you pose the question as to why someone that doesn't believe God exists would want to debate about it with someone who does, suggests to me that you lack empathy or perhaps imagination."
Actually, I said it seemed irrational.
If I lacked empathy I wouldn't be here. I also have selfish reasons.
Imagination? Is there anything beyond imagination?
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Originally posted by josephw
The original autographs are dust. According to the Bible, it was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit to write exactly what God wanted written. We have copies of copies. Now, it would seem logical that in the course of time, without the guidance of God, that what was originally written would be full of errors, if not completely lost.
My point though is that god would have had to be mindful of our limitations in making that choice of what was to be written. Even if the guidance of god prevented original transcription errors and subsequent copy and translation errors, there is still one constraint that god must have chosen not to override, namely our flawed nature. So when we interpret what is written we, that's right, not even you, can be sure we have it right.
Why would God allow that to happen?
We can ask that about a lot of things.
Actually, I said it seemed irrational.
You say that as if you are correcting me. You are not. This is a direct quote from you in the first post:
"And why would someone that doesn't believe God exists want to debate about it with someone who does?"
Which indicates to me that you don't seem to be able to look at things from an atheist's point of view, because if you could, it wouldn't seem irrational and you wouldn't have posed the question.
Imagination? Is there anything beyond imagination?
Probably.
Originally posted by Lord Shark=======================
Originally posted by josephw
[b]The original autographs are dust. According to the Bible, it was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit to write exactly what God wanted written. We have copies of copies. Now, it would seem logical that in the course of time, without the guidance of God, that what was originally written would be full of error ed the question.
[b]Imagination? Is there anything beyond imagination?
Probably.[/b]
My point though is that god would have had to be mindful of our limitations in making that choice of what was to be written.
================================ [/b]
When I read about God in the Bible I have no problem at all seeing that He is mindful of human limitations of all kinds, in all matters.
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Even if the guidance of god prevented original transcription errors and subsequent copy and translation errors, there is still one constraint that god must have chosen not to override, namely our flawed nature.
========================================
God is totally aware of what He limited Himself to in using men to pen down the inspired revelation of God.
The essential matters of truth are repeated many times over and over again so as to neutralize human error.
Don't you see the repetition in the Scriptures about major themes?
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So when we interpret what is written we, that's right, not even you, can be sure we have it right.
===============================
You have probably made major decisions in life with far, far less certainty about interpreting things.
==============================
Why would God allow that to happen?
==============================
The Bible is not existing in a vacuum. Behind it is the living God who hears the seeking and honest prayers for guidance and help. You are by no mean on your own.
I come to the book and come to God in pray simultaneously very often. The Holy Spirit will illuminate what in the Scruptures He wants to impress you with.
Once you get a little light, hold on to it and walk in it. If you respond to the wisdom God grants you He will grant you more wisdom. If you walk in the light that God makes clear to you He will then grant you more light.
"To him who has will more be given. To him who has not, even what he has will be taken away."
It is vain to consider God as incompentent - not wise enough to communicate with His creatures.
======================
We can ask that about a lot of things.
===================================
There is no harm in asking about a lot of things.
And there are some unkowns.
If you read the Bible with prayer for God to show you some truth, He will. When you get a little truth, don't ignore it. Respond to the truth that He shows you. When God sees that the little truth He gave you you handled obediently, then He will grant you more truth.
He is economical. And I think He doesn't waste His light on someone He knows is not open hearted. So come to the Bible hungry for God.
"The hungry He has filled with good things, and the rich He has sent away empty." (Luke 1:53)
Come to the Word of God hungry for His truth, hungry for God Himself. Come humble and not proud. The poor in spirit shall see God. The way up is down. The way to be lifted is to humble yourself before God.
Do not come to the Bible proud thinking that you should be God's advizor as to how He sent His prophets and apostles. Listen to the prayer of Jesus here:
"At that time Jesus answered and said, I extol You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
Yes, Father, for thus it has been well pleasing in Your sight."( Matt. 11:25,26)
God the Father hide some things from the proud and revealed them to the humble. So be humble and come to the Bible with prayer and petition for God to reveal His truth to you.
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Originally posted by jaywillOriginally posted by jaywill
[b]=======================
My point though is that god would have had to be mindful of our limitations in making that choice of what was to be written.
================================ [/b]
When I read about God in the Bible I have no problem at all seeing that He is mindful of human limitations of all kinds, in all matters.
===== ...[text shortened]... le and come to the Bible with prayer and petition for God to reveal His truth to you.
When I read about God in the Bible I have no problem at all seeing that He is mindful of human limitations of all kinds, in all matters.
Yet I'm not sure that you have seen all of the possible implications of this.
God is totally aware of what He limited Himself to in using men to pen down the inspired revelation of God.
Such a god would be, of course.
The essential matters of truth are repeated many times over and over again so as to neutralize human error.
It is human nature to err, it cannot be neutralised in that way. You can see the evidence before you in the multiplicity of sincere yet mutually contradictory interpretations of scripture. God, being all powerful, could neutralize our predisposition to err, but god chooses not to, it seems.
You have probably made major decisions in life with far, far less certainty about interpreting things.
Yes. And guess what, I got some of them wrong.
The Bible is not existing in a vacuum. Behind it is the living God who hears the seeking and honest prayers for guidance and help. You are by no mean on your own.
I come to the book and come to God in pray simultaneously very often. The Holy Spirit will illuminate what in the Scruptures He wants to impress you with.
Once you get a little light, hold on to it and walk in it. If you respond to the wisdom God grants you He will grant you more wisdom. If you walk in the light that God makes clear to you He will then grant you more light.
So many christians give equivalent testimonies to this. Yet they say mutually contradictory things. I wonder whether you have the integrity to confront this methodological problem honestly.
It is vain to consider God as incompentent - not wise enough to communicate with His creatures.
It is hubris to consider that humans are capable of comprehending everything that god could impart. God then can choose, to work with our limitations even though this might preclude our total understanding, or fundamentally change our nature so that we can all see and understand the truth. God prefers the former it seems.
If you read the Bible with prayer for God to show you some truth, He will. When you get a little truth, don't ignore it. Respond to the truth that He shows you. When God sees that the little truth He gave you you handled obediently, then He will grant you more truth.
He is economical. And I think He doesn't waste His light on someone He knows is not open hearted. So come to the Bible hungry for God.
Insofar as this is testable, the evidence is against you, insofar that it is unfalsifiable it represents your get-out-of-jail-free card.
I think what you have there is a series of quasi propositions protected in the candy coating of your supposed humility and openness to god's will. This doesn't stand up to scrutiny as we can see that the probability that your interpretation is the correct one is objectively low.