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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    09 Apr '18 17:22
    Founding member - Sonship
    Honorary member - Second Son
    Subscribers - Romans1009, and many others too numerous to mention

    First a definition courtesy Google

    Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.

    Two examples from the CPA:

    1. Second Son quotes in support of faith only doctrine Ephesians 2:8&9
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Not of works, lest any man should boast.


    And says As a Pharisee it is incomprehensible for you to believe that works of the law don't save. "Good works" won't save you.

    Cherry picking one verse on which to base this doctrine while ignoring the entire book of Ephesians...in which Paul explains that without righteousness and good works there is no inheritance in the Kingdom of God.

    2. Sonship - says that this passage in John proves that he is eternally saved and not even God can revoke it.

    He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (1 John 5:10-12 KJV)

    Again Sonship cherry picked a small passage which is explained just a few verses down:

    What does it mean when John says .. he that hath the Son hath life

    And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. (2 John 1:6-11 KJV)

    There it is. John explains it clearly
    Whosoever transgresseth,
    and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
    hath not God.
    He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ,
    he hath both the Father and the Son.


    Because of this cherry picking:
    Sonship and his ilk preaches everything EXCEPT the doctrine of Christ
    Sonship preaches that it is ok to transgress and ok not to abide in the doctrine of Christ

    Without cherry picking the whole doctrine of Christ and the Apostles makes sense:
    1. Accept Christ with the mouth
    2. Believe in the heart that he was raised from the dead
    3. Believe by DOING and living righteously
    4. Follow the commandments of Christ
    5 Do good works

    Failure to do these things leads to damnation.

    The doctrine of the CPA says that failure leads to eternal life. Hilarious nonsense.
  2. Subscriber sonship
    the corrected one.
    09 Apr '18 18:27 / 1 edit
    Readers, I have been with you on this Forum for years referring to verse after verse after verse for various points I wanted to make. If I have "cherry picked" the Bible I probably have come close to picking the entire cherry tree.

    When I spoke of assurance of having eternal life, I picked verses appropriate to that.
    When I spoke of reward and discipline to those saved, I picked verses appropriate to that.
    When I spoke of drawing close to God with heart and mouth, I chose relevant passages.
    When I spoke of the need to live righteously through and by Christ, I chose verses appropriate to that revelation.

    Almost all of the tree on almost every branch I have picked "cherries."

    The reason I recommend First John 5:11-13 ( Rajk999 said I emphasized verse 10) was that it so CLEARLY reveals that THE life IS ... THE Son of God.

    ... God gave to us eternal life and this life is in His Son.

    He who has the Son has the life;
    he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (vs. 11,12)


    In fact instead of saying "Lord Jesus, I receive You" I think conceivably one could pray in this way:

    "O Eternity, I love You. O Eternal Life thankyou for dying for me on the cross. Eternal Life I LOVE You. O Lord Eternal Life You are my eternal salvation. Thankyou Lord Jesus."


    Sometimes when I am loving the Lord Jesus, I do address Him as "Eternity". He knows what I mean. And I sense deep within that He is so pleased and surely affirms the truth in me. I just call the Father - "O ETernity!!".

    God is the UNCREATED, EVER EXISTING, SELF EXISTING, Eternal One - the Life. He became a man friends. Enemies - This Eternal One became a man.

    Christ Himself is the eternal life. He said so -
    "I am the way and the truth and THE LIFE, no one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6 my emphasis)


    I may devote this thread to establishing that this eternal life is a PERSON.

    After I have adaquately proved that, I may deal with a caveat in the Bible in the mentioning of "eternal life". There is an important caveat somewhere which has not escaped my noticed.

    But FOR NOW ... grasp that this life IS the Son of God.
    To HAVE Him is to HAVE ..."the life" - the ZOE [divine life which is God Himself] come to man and dispensed into those who receive Jesus Christ.
  3. Subscriber sonship
    the corrected one.
    09 Apr '18 18:37
    He who has the Son has THE LIFE. That is what the Apostle John wrote.

    Now let's get all convinced. In the beginning of that epistle he says that he and his companion apostles heard, saw, and handled with their hands THAT LIFE which was with the Father.

    Look carefully:

    "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life.

    (And the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us.) (1 John 1:1,2)


    The eternal life was from the beginning.
    The eternal life was with the Father.
    The eternal was manifested to the apostles.
    They beheld that life, heard and saw the life and handled that life.

    No wonder He who has the Son of God HAS the life (1 John 5:11,12).

    You may even throw open the doors of your heart and address Him as "Eternal Life" realizing that you are speaking to a Person - the Lord Jesus.

    "O Eternity. O my Love - Eternal Life Jesus. Thankyou for coming for me to die on the cross for me and rise again from the dead for my saving.

    O Eternity Jesus. O I love You ETERNITY. Lord Jesus my eternal life, my Eternal One. O Son of God I love You. "


    Go ahead and use your believing heart, your praying humans spirit and your wide open MOUTH. Turn and Touch Jesus.
  4. Standard member Romans1009
    Kiddo’s Back!!
    09 Apr '18 18:38
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    Founding member - Sonship
    Honorary member - Second Son
    Subscribers - Romans1009, and many others too numerous to mention

    First a definition courtesy Google

    [b]Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position while ignoring a sig ...[text shortened]... ation.

    The doctrine of the CPA says that failure leads to eternal life. Hilarious nonsense.
    <<1. Accept Christ with the mouth
    2. Believe in the heart that he was raised from the dead
    3. Believe by DOING and living righteously
    4. Follow the commandments of Christ
    5 Do good works>>

    Let me fix this for you...

    1. Accept Jesus Christ into your heart.
    2. Believe in your heart that He was Resurrected (raised from the dead.)
    3. Yield your life to God’s Holy Spirit Who has now indwelt you.
    4. Strengthen the influence of God’s Holy Spirit on your life through regular Bible reading and prayer. Pray to be an instrument of God’s will.
    5. As you yield your life to God’s Holy Spirit, God will manifest His will in your life, which will include the development of an aversion to sin and performance of “good works.”
    6. Once you accept Christ into your heart and believe He was Resurrected, you are eternally saved. Why? Because God looks on the heart (not outward behavior and appearance,) and when He looks on your heart, He sees Christ, His holy and beloved Son!
  5. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    09 Apr '18 18:44
    Originally posted by @sonship
    Readers, I have been with you on this Forum for years referring to verse after verse after verse for various points I wanted to make. If I have "cherry picked" the Bible I probably have come close to picking the entire cherry tree.

    When I spoke of assurance of having eternal life, I picked verses appropriate to that.
    When I spoke of reward and discipli ...[text shortened]... divine life which is God Himself] come to man and dispensed into those who receive Jesus Christ.
    Are there any cherries you haven't picked, ones that you struggle to accept as being part of the tree?
  6. Subscriber sonship
    the corrected one.
    09 Apr '18 18:47
    I have written above that the life is the Son. First John 1:1,2 proves that the eternal life that was with the Father is what the disciples heard, saw, and even handled with their hands and declare to us.

    ("And the life was manifested and we have seen and testify and report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us);

    That which we have seen and heard we report also to you that you also may have fellowship with us, and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

    And these things we write that our joy may be made full." (1 John 1:2-4)


    Those are indeed delicious cherries.
  7. Subscriber sonship
    the corrected one.
    09 Apr '18 18:53 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    Are there any cherries you haven't picked, ones that you struggle to accept as being part of the tree?
    That is a fair question and a good one.

    I have told you all before, I don't believe even angels like EVERYTHING that is written in the Bible.

    A unique property of the Bible is that it contains somewhere something that steps on everybody's toes.

    I don't care who you are. There is probably something written in the Bible - at least ONE passage, that you wish was not there.

    Yes Ghost, I have verses which rub my fur the wrong way.
    I have learned to love them.
    I was trained well, to always say "Amen" to everything written in the Bible without struggling too much to reconcile it logically with some other passage that I'd prefer.

    The Bible is unique in that somewhere it probably offends everyone. Once you learn this program, it is not too bad at all. It is a life changing book.

    The Bible also seems to allude 100% systemization.
  8. 09 Apr '18 19:05
    Originally posted by @sonship
    Readers, I have been with you on this Forum for years referring to verse after verse after verse for various points I wanted to make. If I have "cherry picked" the Bible I probably have come close to picking the entire cherry tree.

    When I spoke of assurance of having eternal life, I picked verses appropriate to that.
    When I spoke of reward and discipli ...[text shortened]... divine life which is God Himself] come to man and dispensed into those who receive Jesus Christ.
    God is the UNCREATED, EVER EXISTING, SELF EXISTING, Eternal One - the Life. He became a man friends. Enemies - This Eternal One became a man.

    ?????? What is this supposed to mean?
  9. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    09 Apr '18 19:06
    Originally posted by @sonship
    Readers, I have been with you on this Forum for years referring to verse after verse after verse for various points I wanted to make. If I have "cherry picked" the Bible I probably have come close to picking the entire cherry tree.

    When I spoke of assurance of having eternal life, I picked verses appropriate to that.
    When I spoke of reward and discipli ...[text shortened]... divine life which is God Himself] come to man and dispensed into those who receive Jesus Christ.
    Nonsense. Paul spent the greater part of Ephesians 3, 4 and 5 talking about righteousness and good works which if Christians not do will lead to no inheritance in the Kingdom of God. You never once discussed it. When i raise that part of Paul's letters you ignore it.

    That is cherry picking.

    Again in the John passage, John explained shortly after who it is HATH THE SON. And it is those who follow the commandments. Those dont have nothing. But you dont address those passages.

    More cherry picking and more lies in claiming that quote the whole bible ... liar.
  10. Subscriber sonship
    the corrected one.
    09 Apr '18 19:08
    Here is the kind of passage that someone like Rajk999 would harp on. I love the passage. I love it.

    But it speaks of eternal life as a destination towards which the Christian is in the process of journeying. Its great. Look.

    "But now, having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end, eternal life." (Rom 6:22)


    Protestant brothers and sisters may struggle with this.
    Here eternal life is at the END of a process of sanctification.
    Am I right?

    Of course that is correct -

    " ... your fruit unto sanctification, and the END, eternal life."


    Paul stresses here that eternal life is at the END of a process. So then why do I stress that it is the BEGINNING of a process?

    Is this an AHA! moment? Not really because BOTH are true.
    We are a three part being "spirit and soul and body".

    As this life spreads, gains control, permeates, and more and more infuses His influence over the believer's whole being SANCTIFICATION, is taking place. The CLIMAX is "eternal life" for the entire being.

    In that sense eternal life here is spoken of not as the beginning but as the consummation of being made holy - "sanctification".


    You have to learn to say "Amen!" to everything revealed in the Holy Bible.
  11. Standard member Ghost of a Duke
    Zen Master
    09 Apr '18 19:12
    Originally posted by @sonship
    That is a fair question and a good one.

    I have told you all before, I don't believe even angels like EVERYTHING that is written in the Bible.

    A unique property of the Bible is that it contains somewhere something that steps on everybody's toes.

    I don't care who you are. There is probably something written in the Bible - at least ONE passage, that ...[text shortened]... o bad at all. It is a life changing book.

    The Bible also seems to allude 100% systemization.
    Too much there for me to compute. (Been a long day).

    1. You were 'trained well, to always say "Amen" to everything written in the Bible without struggling too much to reconcile it logically...'
    2.The Bible also seems to allude 100% systemization.
    3. ...You have fur.

    Pretty sure I can dispute at least 2 of them.
  12. 09 Apr '18 19:15
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    <<1. Accept Christ with the mouth
    2. Believe in the heart that he was raised from the dead
    3. Believe by DOING and living righteously
    4. Follow the commandments of Christ
    5 Do good works>>

    Let me fix this for you...

    1. Accept Jesus Christ into your heart.
    2. Believe in your heart that He was Resurrected (raised from the dead.)
    3. Yield you ...[text shortened]... vior and appearance,) and when He looks on your heart, He sees Christ, His holy and beloved Son!
    "Once you accept Christ into your heart and believe He was Resurrected, you are eternally saved. Why? Because God looks on the heart (not outward behavior and appearance,) and when He looks on your heart, He sees Christ, His holy and beloved Son!"

    Really? Still not taught in the bible unless your are of the "little flock" that Jesus said would rule with him in heaven and would be given immortality. The vast majority of humans will never go to heaven and will never be given immortality. You quote many scriptures that say this but you continually miss that fact.
    But for arguments sake lets say you have been picked by Jesus to go to heaven, what exactly will you be doing there? Will you be floating around on a cloud playing music? Probably not as the bible is very clear on what those who go to heaven will be doing for those thousand years. But before any of the "little flock" go to heaven and are still humans on earth, what will they be doing and more important what are they not allowed to do? So all here who believe they are chosen to go to heaven to be with Jesus should know these answers.
  13. Subscriber sonship
    the corrected one.
    09 Apr '18 19:18 / 1 edit
    There are many verses which speak of eternal life or salvation as the destination arrived at the end of a process.

    Many passages in the book of Romans, the basic book of Christian doctrine, are like this.

    Based on passages like this, if someone is preferential they may say -

    "See you Luther Protestants, Eternal life is not the beginning of the Christian life. It is rather the conclusion, the end, the climax of a life lived RIGHT."

    They DO have some ground to say this.
    Don't fight it as if they have no ground. There is that aspect.

    But this the growing of life, the encreasing of life, and the spreading of life from the innermost being outward into the soul and finally out into the body.

    This is being saved COMPLETE - "spirit and soul and body" (1 Thess. 5:23) . From the center to the circumference this life migrates out into the whole being.

    In that very real sense eternal life is something every Christian upon being saved is moving towards by way of a process, (if things are normal).

    now lets look at the verse after our caveat and see that this permeation of life is STILL a gift. Without Jesus and His grace, it is not going to happen.

    "But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end, eternal life.

    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. 6:22,23)


    This is moving from the positional to the dispositional.
  14. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    09 Apr '18 19:22
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    Are there any cherries you haven't picked, ones that you struggle to accept as being part of the tree?
    He struggles with all the parts of Christ znd the apostles teachings which speak of good works righteousness obedience to the commandments. Only about 90%
  15. 09 Apr '18 19:28
    Originally posted by @sonship
    There are many verses which speak of eternal life or salvation as the destination arrived at the end of a process.

    Many passages in the book of [b]Romans
    , the basic book of Christian doctrine, are like this.

    Based on passages like this, if someone is preferential they may say -

    "See you Luther Protestants, Eternal life is not the beginning of ...[text shortened]... Lord." (Rom. 6:22,23) [/b] [/quote]

    This is moving from the positional to the dispositional.[/b]
    Who is this responding too?