Originally posted by LemonJelloI would like to see the full letter, or if what Hal posted is the full letter, I'd like to see the article to which Dawkins was responding.
I can't find it either. Halitose gave me the following link, but it only shows the same text in full that he posted in the first post:
http://www.sundayherald.com/life/people/display.var.1031440.0.eugenics_may_not_be_bad.php
Halitose, is this the full article?
All I can find when I google the text are several obviously sensationalized write ups by xian zealots. The intellectual dishonesty of these people is pathetic. Argue on the merits of what Dawkins says, not some ridiculous caricature.
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Slightly off-topic but for those interested, the following is a link to the same presentation Richard Dawkins gave at my university just a few days before. The interesting thing though is that this one was given about 60 miles down the road in Lynchburg, VA, the home of Jerry Falwell and his Liberty University. It's a joke fundamentalist xian college filled with hardline evangelicals.
I haven't finished watching, but apparently the Q & A at the end is awesome. I hope those with interests in such things will enjoy.
Edit: http://richarddawkins.net/home
click on the YouTube links on the page.
If I am able to select the best sperm and eggs from me and my partner in order to ensure that my child will be as intelligent as possible and musically inclined, is that eugenics and is it morally wrong.
If I am planning to adopt and I chose as parents, two people whose characteristics I especially admire, is that eugenics and is it morally wrong.
If I choose to get married to a woman because I want my children to share some of her characteristics that I admire, is that eugenics and is it morally wrong.
Originally posted by twhiteheadGood questions; maybe we'll hear some answers that are based on reasoning rather than scaremongering (don't hold your breath though).
If I am able to select the best sperm and eggs from me and my partner in order to ensure that my child will be as intelligent as possible and musically inclined, is that eugenics and is it morally wrong.
If I am planning to adopt and I chose as parents, two people whose characteristics I especially admire, is that eugenics and is it morally wrong.
...[text shortened]... n to share some of her characteristics that I admire, is that eugenics and is it morally wrong.
Originally posted by HalitoseHere is an article that distinguishes between "classical" eugenics (your definition) and "new" eugenics (focused on individuals, not population groups) :
Eugenics, n.,: the science of using controlled breeding to increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristics in a population.
http://www.med.osaka-u.ac.jp/pub/eth/English/paper22.pdf
Originally posted by twhiteheadThis type of questioning opens a whole can of worms. What is the best sperm and egg and why? Will choosing this ideal sperm and egg ensure that you will be intelligent and musically inclined? Will you give up other qualities that may have been deemed desirable in order to seek the qualities that you seem to think are the most desirable? Will everyone then seek the same qualities thus making us have similar qualities that will not make us stand out, rather, it will simply make us average once again.
If I am able to select the best sperm and eggs from me and my partner in order to ensure that my child will be as intelligent as possible and musically inclined, is that eugenics and is it morally wrong.
If I am planning to adopt and I chose as parents, two people whose characteristics I especially admire, is that eugenics and is it morally wrong.
...[text shortened]... n to share some of her characteristics that I admire, is that eugenics and is it morally wrong.
Dr. Seuss anyone?
Now, the Star-Belly Sneetches had bellies with stars. The Plain-belly Sneetches had none upon thars. Those stars were not so big. They were really so small you might think such a thing would not matter at all. But, because they had stars, all the Star-belly Sneetches would brag, "We're the best kind of Sneetch on the beaches." With their snoots in the air, they would sniff and they'd snort, "We'll have nothing to do with the Plain-Belly sort!" And whenever they met some, when they were out walking, they'd hike right on past them without even talking. When the Star-Belly children went out to play ball, could a Plain Belly get in the game....? Not at all. You only could play if your bellies had stars and the Plain-Belly children had none upon thars..........Then one day, it seems....while the Plain-Belly Sneetches were moping and doping alone on the beeches, just sitting there wishing their bellies had stars...A stranger zipped up in the strangest of cars! "My friends," he announced in a voice clear and keen, "My name is Sylvester McMonkey McBean. And I've heard of your troubles. I've heard your unhappy. But I can fix that. I'm the Fix-it-up Chappie. I've come here to help you. I have what you need. And my prices are low. And I work at great speed. And my work is 100% guaranteed." Then quickly, Sylvester McMonkey McBean put together a very peculiar machine. And he said, "You want stars like the Star-Belly Sneetches? My friends, you can have them for $3 each. Just pay me your money and hop right aboard" So they clambered inside. Then the big machine roared and it klonked and it bonked and it jerked and it berked and it bopped them about. But the thing really worked! When the Plain-Belly Sneetches popped out they had stars upon thars! Then they yelled at the ones who had stars at the start, "We're exactly like you, you can't tell us apart! We're all just the same, now, you snooty old smarties and now we can go to your frankfurter parties." "Good grief!", groaned the ones who had stars at the first. "We're still the best Sneetches and they are the worst. But now, how in the world will we know," they all frowned, "If which kind is what, or the other way round?" Then up came McBean with a very sly wink and he said, "Things are not quite as bad as you think. So you don't know who's who. That is perfectly true. But come with me friends do you know what I'll do? I'll make you, again, the best Sneetches on the beaches and all it will cost you is $10 eaches. Belly stars are no longer in style", said McBean. "What you need is a trip through my Star-Off machine. This wonderous contraption will take off your stars so you will not look like Sneetches who have them on thars." And that handy machine worked precisely removing all the stars from their tummies quite nicely. Then, with snoots in the air, they prarded about and they opened their beaks and they let out a shout, "We know who is who! Now there is'nt a doubt. The best kind of Sneetches are Sneethces without! Then, of course, those with stars all got frightfully mad. To be wearing a star now was frightfully bad. Then, of course, old Sylevster McMonkey McBean invited them into his Star-Off Machine. Then, of course from then on, as you probably guess, things really got into a horrible mess. All the rest of the day, on those wild screaming beaches, the fix-it-up Chappie kept fixing up Sneetches. Off again, on again, off again, on again. Through the machines they raced round and about again, changing their stars every minute or two. They kept paying their money, they kept running through until neither the Plain nor the Star-Bellies knew whether this one was that one......or that one was this one or which one was what one......or what one was who. Then, when every last cent of their money was spent, the Fix-it-up Chappie packed up and he went. And he laughed as he drove in his car up the beach, "They never will learn, no, you can't teach a Sneetch!" But McBean was quite wrong I'm happy to say that Sneetches got really quite smart on that day. The day they decided that Sneethces are Sneetches and no kind of Sneetch is the best on the beaches. That day, all the Sneetches forgot about stars and whether they had one, or not, upon thars.
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Originally posted by whodeyAre those moral objections or just questions about possibilities? Why is leaving the choice of child qualities up to random chance better in your opinion?
This type of questioning opens a whole can of worms. What is the best sperm and egg and why? Will choosing this ideal sperm and egg ensure that you will be intelligent and musically inclined? Will you give up other qualities that may have been deemed desirable in order to seek the qualities that you seem to think are the most desirable? Will everyone then ...[text shortened]... ar qualities that will not make us stand out, rather, it will simply make us average once again.
We already see people trying to avoid genetic diseases. Is this also wrong?
Suppose I want a daughter with blue eyes. Why would I be wrong to select an egg which has the correct genes to ensure this? What about sex discrimination? Many people want a child of a particular sex (in some cases so badly as to have an abortion or kill the child if the wrong sex is conceived. Why is it wrong to choose before the fertilization stage?
[Edit]The Dr. Seuss story is very good but nobody actually takes it to heart, the fashion industry is proof of that.