Demon-infested Christians

Originally posted by scherzo

That's not counterpoint. That's discrimination.[/quote]
No, it's an observation based on the information I get on a daily basis through a plethora of sources. If you want to put the blame on someone for my beliefs, put it on Western media and many internet news sources. I don't purport to get my information from anywhere but the aforementioned. But I do get a lot of information. More than your average bear, that's for sure.

Wrong. The (vast) majority of Muslims believe that the time for jihad is either in the future or will never come.

I don't believe that to be true. But neither of us would be able to convince the other, that we know one way or the other firsthand. Even if you are a self-proclaimed Muslim who believes jihad might not even come, I personally believe you are in a microscopic minority.

No, it isn't. Keep in mind, by the way, that Islam is about 650 years younger than Christianity. 650 years ago, Christians were still burning each other for saying that the Earth revolved around the Sun. At the same time, Islam was in a golden age. Is the golden age still going on? No. But we're a lot better now than you were when your religion was the age that ours is right now.

About the only argument I have against that is, today mankind as a whole is a ton more civilized and technologically advanced, so the Muslims have a little bit less of an excuse. But for the most part, your point is accepted. It's a good point.

First of all, you can't compare the Crusades to what Muslims did. Although a lot of attacks precipitated by "Holy War" for so-called Muslims have happened recently, nothing compares to the absolute evil of the Crusades. As for witch hunts --- see above for my comment about the golden age. And Mohammed was not a conqueror until he received the vision. Before then he was a merchant. He was forced to become a conqueror when the pagan rulers of the Arabian Peninsula tried to force him into exile with his followers.

Well, true, during the time Mohammed was in Mecca, military conquest and forcible expansion was apparently not the goal. But that all changed after he moved to Medina and even if the pagans in the area "picked the fight" the fact is, expansion through force and political / military ideology became core values of Islam.

Originally posted by sumydid
an extremist Christian is someone who publicly condemns behaviors... the so-called "holy roller." In comparison, the extremist Muslim of today preaches violence against non-Muslims. [...] When's the last time you saw an abortion clinic bomber quote Jesus' teachings to justify their acts?

Who do you define as an "extremist Muslim"? Earlier I detected the insinuation that you define them as "...the entire Muslim community, with the exception of the scant few pacifist moderates who don't subscribe to the teachings" ...your own words, indeed. Have I taken them out of context? Or do they just about sum your opinion/definition up?

Originally posted by FMF
Who do you define as an "extremist Muslim"? Earlier I detected the insinuation that you define them as "...the entire Muslim community, with the exception of the scant few pacifist moderates who don't subscribe to the teachings" ...your own words, indeed. Have I taken them out of context? Or do they just about sum your opinion/definition up?

An extremist Muslim by my definition would be a Muslim who doesn't reject the Koran's call for militant, aggressive, or violent action. Though the extremist is likely not to pick up a weapon and strike down those who don't bend their knee to Allah, he (notice I say he since the female Muslim's role is considerably diminished) supports jihad all the way.

Originally posted by utherpendragon
This is a serious question. Im not being a wise guy.I was under the impression that the woman were not treated well and the muslims were dead set against homosexuality. Am I incorrect? If so,please explain

In some cases, yes. The Qur'an does say some horrible things about women and homosexuals, all taken from the Old Testament of course.

Originally posted by sumydid
Originally posted by scherzo

[b]That's not counterpoint. That's discrimination.[/quote]
No, it's an observation based on the information I get on a daily basis through a plethora of sources. If you want to put the blame on someone for my beliefs, put it on Western media and many internet news sources. I don't purport to get my information fr ...[text shortened]... nsion through force and political / military ideology became core values of Islam.[/b]

No, it's an observation based on the information I get on a daily basis through a plethora of sources.

Like FOX news, FOX radio, FOX Australia, etc?

I don't believe that to be true. But neither of us would be able to convince the other, that we know one way or the other firsthand. Even if you are a self-proclaimed Muslim who believes jihad might not even come, I personally believe you are in a microscopic minority.

I do know firsthand, having been to several Muslim countries. As opposed to you, who, judging from your posts, has never been to one. And the microscopic minority is the self-proclaimed crusaders of Islam, who really do not follow Islamic beliefs and practices. The Qur'an does condemn violence in God's name, by the way.

Well, true, during the time Mohammed was in Mecca, military conquest and forcible expansion was apparently not the goal. But that all changed after he moved to Medina and even if the pagans in the area "picked the fight" the fact is, expansion through force and political / military ideology became core values of Islam.

Which wouldn't make Mohammed a willing conqueror, would it?

Originally posted by sumydid
An extremist Muslim by my definition would be a Muslim who doesn't reject the Koran's call for militant, aggressive, or violent action.

That rules out nearly all Muslims then. So that's good, right?

Originally posted by sumydid
An extremist Muslim by my definition would be a Muslim who doesn't reject the Koran's call for militant, aggressive, or violent action. Though the extremist is likely not to pick up a weapon and strike down those who don't bend their knee to Allah, he (notice I say he since the female Muslim's role is considerably diminished) supports jihad all the way.

The Qur'an makes no such calls. It says that a jihad may come, and it expects loyal Muslims to fight, but it says nothing about "militant, aggressive, or violent action." In fact, as I have said above, it condones such action.

Originally posted by scherzo
The Qur'an makes no such calls. It says that a jihad may come, and it expects loyal Muslims to fight, but it says nothing about "militant, aggressive, or violent action." In fact, as I have said above, it condones such action.

I do not claim to be a authority on the Qur'an but, I beg to differ on your point that "it says nothing about militant,aggressive,or violent action" The "sword verse" sura 9:5 is often quoted and sura 9:29 is an example of condoning violence against jews and christians. please correct me if I am wrong

Originally posted by utherpendragon
I do not claim to be a authority on the Qur'an but, I beg to differ on your point that "it says nothing about militant,aggressive,or violent action" The "sword verse" sura 9:5 is often quoted and sura 9:29 is an example of condoning violence against jews and christians. please correct me if I am wrong

9:5 is about idolaters. 9:29 is not very specific, but I think it says that people who don't follow the word of God (i.e. non-Abrahamics) should be punished. Jews and Christians are Abrahamics. I believe that Islam views them inherently as misled but not worthy of extermination.

Disclaimer: I don't support the extermination of any group for any reason.

Originally posted by scherzo
9:5 is about idolaters. 9:29 is not very specific, but I think it says that people who don't follow the word of God (i.e. non-Abrahamics) should be punished. Jews and Christians are Abrahamics. I believe that Islam views them inherently as misled but not worthy of extermination.

Disclaimer: I don't support the extermination of any group for any reason.

9;29 refers to "people of the book". And yes 9:5 is about idolaters but thats not the point of why I cited that verse. I was trying to show how violence is condoned in the Qur'an.I can show more examples but my point is not to attack the Qur'an . I am showing why I believe your statement was incorrect .

Originally posted by utherpendragon
9;29 refers to "people of the book". And yes 9:5 is about idolaters but thats not the point of why I cited that verse. I was trying to show how violence is condoned in the Qur'an.I can show more examples but my point is not to attack the Qur'an . I am showing why I believe your statement was incorrect .

6:151 "Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom."

2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves."

Seems to me like it's more of a "leave them alone, but if they try to kill you, kill them first" kind of mentality.

Originally posted by scherzo
6:151 "Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom."

2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for ...[text shortened]... of a "leave them alone, but if they try to kill you, kill them first" kind of mentality.

INITIATING ATTACKS ALLOWED

As the strength of the Medina Muslim community grew, initiating attacks were allowed with certain restrictions as to sacred times and places. Sura 2:191 And slay them wherever ye catch them and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. Sura 9:35 The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year) so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.

UNCONDITIONAL COMMAND TO FIGHT ALL UNBELIEVERS EVERYWHERE

AND AT ANY TIME

Finally the command for indiscriminate Jihad against all unbelievers at all times and places was given which has been valid ever since until the day of Judgement. A typical verse is the "sword verse" Sura 9:5 Sura 9:5 But when the forbidden months are past then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them beleaguer them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war). This verse is cited more than any other as abrogating less aggressive Qur'anic passages. It is said to have abrogated no fewer than 124 verses of the Qur'an. The reference to the sacred months is said to mean that after this specific period of sacred month, you need not respect any sacred months any more, but can fight whenever it is convenient.

PERMISSION TO ATTACK JEWS AND CHRISTIANS

While the sword verse 9:5 refers to idolaters, another verse, Sura 9:29 was given to permit attacking Jews and Christians (people of the book): Sura 9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth (even if they are) of the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.

GENERAL DUTY OF JIHAD

Sura 2:216 Fighting is prescribed for you and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth and ye know not. Sura 2:244 Then fight in the cause of Allah and know that Allah heareth and knoweth all things. Sura 4:76 Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil: so fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan. Sura 4:84 Then fight in Allah's cause thou art held responsible only for thyself and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the unbelievers: for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment. Sura 47:4 Therefore when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight) smite at their necks; at length when ye have thoroughly subdued them bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah He will never let their deeds be lost. Sura 4:71 O ye who believe! take your precautions and either go forth in parties or go forth all together. Sura 4:84 Then fight in Allah's cause thou art held responsible only for thyself and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the unbelievers: for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.

STRIKE TERROR IN HEARTS OF INFIDEL ENEMY

Sura 3:151 Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers for that they joined companions with Allah for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the fire; and evil is the home of the wrong-doers! Sura 8:60 Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power including steeds of war to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies and others besides whom ye may not know but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah shall be repaid unto you and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

REWARDS PROMISED TO THOSE WHO DIE IN JIHAD

Sura 2:154 And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay they are living though ye perceive (it) not. Sura 3:157 And if ye are slain or die in the way of Allah forgiveness and mercy from Allah are far better than all they could amass. Sura 3:170 They rejoice in the bounty provided by Allah: and with regard to those left behind who have not yet joined them (in their bliss) the (martyrs) glory in the fact that on them is no fear nor have they (cause to) grieve. Sura 3:195 And their Lord hath accepted of them and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you be he male or female: ye are members one of another; those who have left their homes or been driven out therefrom or suffered harm in My cause or fought or been slain verily I will blot out from them their iniquities and admit them into gardens with rivers flowing beneath; a reward from the presence of Allah and from His presence is the best of rewards. Sura 4:74 Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah whether he is slain or gets victory soon shall We give him a reward of great (value). Sura 4:94 Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home): unto all (in faith) hath Allah promised good: but those who strive and fight hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward. Sura 4:95 Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home): unto all (in faith) hath Allah promised good: but those who strive and fight hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward. Sura 9:111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their good; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth through the Law the Gospel and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

JIHAD AGAINST THOSE WHO CORRUPT THE LAND

Context of the verse on the killing of one person being equal to the killing of the whole world: Sura 5:32 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone slew a person unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief (corruption) in the land it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if anyone saved a life it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear Signs yet even after that many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. Sura 5:33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle and strive with might and main for mischief (corruption) through the land is: execution or crucifixion of the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.

Originally posted by utherpendragon
INITIATING ATTACKS ALLOWED

As the strength of the Medina Muslim community grew, initiating attacks were allowed with certain restrictions as to sacred times and places. Sura 2:191 And slay them wherever ye catch them and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the ...[text shortened]... at is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.

You would think that would shut him up. But it wont.
Been down this road with Schero already and now I just poke fun at him.

Originally posted by utherpendragon
INITIATING ATTACKS ALLOWED

As the strength of the Medina Muslim community grew, initiating attacks were allowed with certain restrictions as to sacred times and places. Sura 2:191 And slay them wherever ye catch them and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the ...[text shortened]... at is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.

Which Nazi site did you copy and paste this from?

Originally posted by scherzo
Which Nazi site did you copy and paste this from?

Its from, " Islam made easy " by,Heinrich Himmler 🙂
Seriously though,thats your response?! Nazi propaganda? Why not the Mossad? I mean if we are going to delve into the depths of absurdity,the Mossad would be a more likely choice I would think. Are you saying those are not quotes from the Qur'an?