1. Maryland
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    18 Jul '11 11:53
    It is truly despicable that Jesus can forgive your sins. The only person who can t forgive you is the person against whom you have sinned. Christianity gives you an easy way out. Christianity is scape goating, but Jesus is the goat. Sacrificing a goat is bad enough, but the blood sacrifice of a human being so you can be relieved of sins against 3rd party is truly barbaric.
  2. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Jul '11 13:19
    Originally posted by 667joe
    It is truly despicable that Jesus can forgive your sins. The only person who can t forgive you is the person against whom you have sinned. Christianity gives you an easy way out. Christianity is scape goating, but Jesus is the goat. Sacrificing a goat is bad enough, but the blood sacrifice of a human being so you can be relieved of sins against 3rd party is truly barbaric.
    It would be barbaric if there were no God nor Savior.


    Ohhhh, I see what you're on about now.

    Well, there you go. Believe, and it ceases to be barbaric.

    You're the one assuming it's barbaric under false pretenses.
  3. Joined
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    18 Jul '11 13:55
    Originally posted by 667joe
    It is truly despicable that Jesus can forgive your sins. The only person who can t forgive you is the person against whom you have sinned. Christianity gives you an easy way out. Christianity is scape goating, but Jesus is the goat. Sacrificing a goat is bad enough, but the blood sacrifice of a human being so you can be relieved of sins against 3rd party is truly barbaric.
    ==========================================
    It is truly despicable that Jesus can forgive your sins.
    ========================================


    No it isn't. Sin separates me from fellowship with God. And in that separation God cannot carry out His eternal plan to dispense His life and nature into me that I may become a son of God.

    "Even as He chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto SONSHIP through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will ..." (Eph. 1:4,5)

    Forgiveness allows me to return to the eternal purpose of God which He ordained before the creation of the universe, before "the foundation of the world".

    The removal of this barrier through forgiveness allows me to be brought back to the eternal purpose of God which can only be carried out as we are able to have communion together.

    So there is nothing at all despicable about being brought back to live in the presence of my heavenly Father.

    "No, Jehovah's hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy that it cannot hear. But your iniquities have become a SEPARATION between you and your God, And your sins have hidden [His] face from you so that He does not hear." (Isaiah 59:1,2)

    The removal of the separation between us and God is not despicable. Your wanting it to remain is morally sick and descpicable.

    ===================================
    The only person who can t forgive you is the person against whom you have sinned.
    ===================================


    If I kill a child when does that child have opportunity to forgive me ?
    If that person has no possibility to forgive me then you are saying there are sins which will never be forgiven.

    But God says "Vengence is Mine. I will repay" for though a child is ignorant, God is never ignorant. And all our transgressions are really against Him.

    So forgiveness from God is the only way ALL sins may really be forgiven. The offended human party cannot always forgive sins. The eternal God CAN always forgive sins. And He alone is in the position to do so as well as inact vengence against the sinner, should that be required.

    Face it joe999. You have committed some sins against people who are not aware of the offense. And the same has happened to YOU also. So an Ultimate Judge and an Ultimate Forgiver in God in the Bible.

    =====================
    Christianity gives you an easy way out.
    ========================


    What is it that you think the Christian has an "easy way out of" ?

    Be specific about what it is that is being easily avoided ?

    ===================================
    Christianity is scape goating, but Jesus is the goat. Sacrificing a goat is bad enough, but the blood sacrifice of a human being so you can be relieved of sins against 3rd party is truly barbaric.
    ========================================


    Going back to God's eternal purpose, it is that men and women be conformed to the image of His Son the He might be the Firstborn among many brothers.

    If we are to be eternally with God, and He does not change, the we must be transformed to be compatible with Him.

    So forgiveness is not an end in itself. The sinner forgiven must be sanctified and conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son of God. The process cannot be postponed forever. The process cannot be avoided. The process cannot be circumented. And simply because man is forgiven does not mean that the conforming is not necessary.

    1.) The forgiven sinner does get to be forgiven of every and all sins he ever commited.

    2.) The sinner DOES NOT get to remain forever the kind of person he was when he sinned.


    So your caricature of a "easy way out" is completely ignorant. This is the typical kind of ignrance of one who will not read carefully the word of God.

    Laziness to carefully examine the word of God, I find despicable in your post.
    Your grandstanding and sensationalist ignorance, I find despicable.
    Your failure to learn anything over the years in this forum could be deemed despicable.

    And if the way of Christian salvation was so much an "easy way out" why are there so many exhortations of warning to Christians for whom eternal redemption has been settled in the positive ?


    For example, just ONE example. Here Paul is speaking to the Christians in the churches in Galatia, for whom forgiveness of sins certainly has been secured.

    "Do not be deceived: God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.

    For he who sows unto his own flesh will reap corruption of the flesh, but he who sows unto the Spirit will of the Spirit reap eternal life." (Galatians 6:7,8)


    The warning "God is not mocked" here is to the forgiven. See the worst part of your ignorant concept is that you portray the heavenly Father as essentially stupid.

    This ignorance of yours could be remedied by some careful and voluntary study of the Bible on your part. But you may prefer to remain in ignorance. Perhaps your apparent disapproval of forgiveness is really a cloaked rational to continue a sin loving life.

    That would really be despicable - a critic of the Gospel of Christ really only interested in rationalizing his continued slavery to sinning.
  4. St. Peter's
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    18 Jul '11 15:56
    Originally posted by 667joe
    It is truly despicable that Jesus can forgive your sins. The only person who can t forgive you is the person against whom you have sinned. Christianity gives you an easy way out. Christianity is scape goating, but Jesus is the goat. Sacrificing a goat is bad enough, but the blood sacrifice of a human being so you can be relieved of sins against 3rd party is truly barbaric.
    Your perception is an almost infintile parody if Christianity. Sine is covered under three basic types. Sins against others, sin aginst self, and sin against God. The sin against God would be things like blaspheming etc... also the other two types are sins against God. The sin against self can be rectified by forgiving oneself and repenting (turning away from) sin and leading a better life. Sins against self and others can be forgiven by others, jesus says so "If you forigice any their sins they are forgiven..."


    So Jesus isn't the only one who forgives sin...
  5. Maryland
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    18 Jul '11 16:35
    Everything you say makes Christianity even more despicable. If you kill a child, you should not be forgiven period.The fact that your religion gives killers a way to get of the hook makes it very dangerous indeed!
  6. Maryland
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    18 Jul '11 16:37
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    It would be barbaric if there were no God nor Savior.


    Ohhhh, I see what you're on about now.

    Well, there you go. Believe, and it ceases to be barbaric.

    You're the one assuming it's barbaric under false pretenses.
    There is no god or savior.
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    18 Jul '11 19:071 edit
    Originally posted by 667joe
    There is no god or savior.
    ===========================
    There is no god or savior.
    ===============================


    Lies, I reject.

    Our Savior God - Jesus, is Lord.
  8. St. Peter's
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    18 Jul '11 19:08
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Everything you say makes Christianity even more despicable. If you kill a child, you should not be forgiven period.The fact that your religion gives killers a way to get of the hook makes it very dangerous indeed!
    the concept of repentance seems to have escaped you, as well as mercy...
  9. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Jul '11 20:14
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Everything you say makes Christianity even more despicable. If you kill a child, you should not be forgiven period.The fact that your religion gives killers a way to get of the hook makes it very dangerous indeed!
    This is why God's system of justice trumps Man's system of justice.

    Man can judge a man to be guilty of murder and execute him. Even if the man has a "last-minute epiphany" and repents his sin, he will still be executed. I fail to see how in your limited world-view he has escaped justice.

    If this man's last-minute epiphany is real, and he has repented in his heart and has asked God for forgiveness and accepted Jesus Christ into his life as his Savior, it may not keep him from the "gallows pole", but it will reward him a spot in Heaven.

    This is because unlike Man, who knows nothing, God knows what is true in this man's heart. He reads your heart, and He cannot be fooled. Your unbelief in God is what makes Christianity despicable to you. Perhaps it's your fear of what God will read upon your heart when you go to meet Him that prevents you from shedding your arrogance that you wear as a shield against God.

    Shed your arrogance. Shed your fear. Accept and believe in Christ today and rest assured that you, too, will receive your spot in Heaven. This is the "Good News" of the New Testament. How could this be despicable?
  10. Subscribersonhouse
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    18 Jul '11 20:29
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    This is why God's system of justice trumps Man's system of justice.

    Man can judge a man to be guilty of murder and execute him. Even if the man has a "last-minute epiphany" and repents his sin, he will still be executed. I fail to see how in your limited world-view he has escaped justice.

    If this man's last-minute epiphany is real, and he has ...[text shortened]... Heaven. This is the "Good News" of the New Testament. How could this be despicable?
    Ok, then what about the person being killed? What if he was Hitler? What happens to him or her after death? Suppose a person is walking down the street with his or her load of sins you christians assign that person, gets whacked by a passing bullet even meant for someone else. The killer gets caught, Jesus forgives him but the person killed? In some kind of limbo, can never get forgiveness now, that person is dead before even a thought could be formed.

    Can't you see how ridiculous all this sounds? Assumptions piled on top of assumptions till the whole edifice falls flat on its made up face.
  11. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Jul '11 20:42
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Ok, then what about the person being killed? What if he was Hitler? What happens to him or her after death? Suppose a person is walking down the street with his or her load of sins you christians assign that person, gets whacked by a passing bullet even meant for someone else. The killer gets caught, Jesus forgives him but the person killed? In some kind of ...[text shortened]... Assumptions piled on top of assumptions till the whole edifice falls flat on its made up face.
    Your story only highlights the importance of giving yourself to God now, rather than later. For it is true, we never know when God will call us back to Him. It's best to be ready.

    And need I remind you that all this is only ridiculous to the man who is not yet saved. To the man who is saved, it is a crucial lifeline, the secure knowledge that one day, he will be reunited with God. The unsaved, on the other hand, is forever separated from God, which, in his arrogance, makes him believe that it is ridiculous. As a sapient man, if God exists, then it is pure folly not to assure that you are counted in His Book of Life and saved. So he makes up the notion that it is all ridiculous in order to continue living the way he has lived without the daily reminder that he has sinned and therefore falls short of the glory of God.

    Man can fool himself, but he cannot fool God.
  12. Subscribersonhouse
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    18 Jul '11 21:111 edit
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Your story only highlights the importance of giving yourself to God [b]now, rather than later. For it is true, we never know when God will call us back to Him. It's best to be ready.

    And need I remind you that all this is only ridiculous to the man who is not yet saved. To the man who is saved, it is a crucial lifeline, the secure knowledge that o ...[text shortened]... and therefore falls short of the glory of God.

    Man can fool himself, but he cannot fool God.[/b]
    All well and good but what about the billions of people born before Jesus? All those folks bound for hell? Never able to be forgiven of their sins? Like I said,

    Assumptions piled on assumptions, where the whole edifice has to devolve into footnotes in history.

    You can't keep adding rationale to rationale forever, at some point people will start to say, wait a minute, this circular reasoning is leading nowhere. Then they will finally realize it is all smoke and mirrors.

    Like I have said many times before, religion robs humans of its absolutely best gift: intelligence. Religion tells you to put aside your rational thought and just rely on faith. That is wrong on so many levels it boggles the mind. Yet in spite of the irrational logic of religion, billions of people are trapped by it, seduced by non-existent afterlife fairy tales.

    Heaven, hell, 70 virgins, whatever, all that is conveniently put in another lifetime, we can never see such things here on Earth, so they spend inordinate amount of mental resources badly needed to correct the stupidity of world governments and multinational corporations who could give a crap about the environment so long as they get their next CEO bonus.

    I don't see your god stopping any of that corruption, which is so serious it can destroy human civilization, maybe off humans completely. Believe me, the planet Earth will be far better off if humans are driven to extinction and there will be no savior magically coming down to stop it if it happens.

    If it does not happen it will be 100% by human intelligence and engineering, not some baseless appeal to a non-interacting god.
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    18 Jul '11 22:14
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Everything you say makes Christianity even more despicable. If you kill a child, you should not be forgiven period.The fact that your religion gives killers a way to get of the hook makes it very dangerous indeed!
    really? what else should be unforgivable according to the might joe? should we include stealing the last money from a widow? how about abortion? is that unforgivable too? will we draw the line at rape? include rape? how about littering? or masturbating in a bus? lord knows i could never forgive a hobo jerking off in the bus i am taking to work.
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    18 Jul '11 23:51
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Everything you say makes Christianity even more despicable. If you kill a child, you should not be forgiven period.The fact that your religion gives killers a way to get of the hook makes it very dangerous indeed!
    Who or where does it say God will forgives those who wilfull murder?
  15. St. Peter's
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    19 Jul '11 01:21
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Who or where does it say God will forgives those who wilfull murder?
    Mark 3:28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”




    on a side note: perhaps your vehement denying of the Holy Spirt as part of the trinity might be construed as unforgivable....hmmm....something to consider
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