1. Joined
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    20 Jan '14 16:58
    "No one born of a forbidden marriage nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation." - NIV

    "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord." - KJV

    Why are illegitimate children, and their children for 10 generations afterward, not allowed to go to Christian Churches? Does any Christian here follow this rule, and if not, why not? Should Christian orphanages be abolished?
  2. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    20 Jan '14 17:05
    Originally posted by PatNovak
    "No one born of a forbidden marriage nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation." - NIV

    "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord." - KJV

    Why are illegitimate children, and their children for 10 g ...[text shortened]... Christian here follow this rule, and if not, why not? Should Christian orphanages be abolished?
    See, I don't like that commandment, so I will say it was just for the Israelites at that time. But I like tithing, because my church needs money, so I will say that one is for everyone. Also, I saw two dudes make out the other day, and it was icky, so I will say that Lev. 18:22 is for everyone.

    Ahem. Global replace: "I will say" -> "God clearly intended that".
  3. SubscriberSuzianne
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    20 Jan '14 17:32
    Originally posted by PatNovak
    "No one born of a forbidden marriage nor any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation." - NIV

    "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord." - KJV

    Why are illegitimate children, and their children for 10 g ...[text shortened]... Christian here follow this rule, and if not, why not? Should Christian orphanages be abolished?
    We get this question all the time in here. (Well, questions similar to this.)

    The laws laid down in the Torah, specifically Numbers, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, all form the Mosaic Law, since these were handed down from God by Moses, whom they called the Lawgiver.

    It is made clear in the NT that these laws only still apply to Jews. They do not apply to Gentiles (non-Jews). Jesus came so that the Gentiles might be made acceptable to God, as the Jewish peoples were when Abraham made his covenants with God back in Genesis, when He accepted them as 'His chosen people'. I'm not 100% current and up-to-date with Jewish law as held in the synagogues, but a good rule of thumb is that Gentiles are not held to Mosaic Law.

    Christians are instructed differently:

    "Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
    Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    This is the first and great commandment.
    And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -- Matthew 22:36-40, KJV
  4. Joined
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    20 Jan '14 18:58
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    We get this question all the time in here. (Well, questions similar to this.)

    The laws laid down in the Torah, specifically Numbers, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, all form the Mosaic Law, since these were handed down from God by Moses, whom they called the Lawgiver.

    It is made clear in the NT that these laws only still apply to Jews. They do not ap ...[text shortened]... thyself.
    On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -- Matthew 22:36-40, KJV
    So if only Jews are still required to follow Mosiac Law, are you OK with God expecting them to follow Mosaic Law?
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    20 Jan '14 19:02
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    We get this question all the time in here. (Well, questions similar to this.)

    The laws laid down in the Torah, specifically Numbers, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, all form the Mosaic Law, since these were handed down from God by Moses, whom they called the Lawgiver.

    It is made clear in the NT that these laws only still apply to Jews. They do not ap ...[text shortened]... thyself.
    On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -- Matthew 22:36-40, KJV
    "We get this question all the time in here. (Well, questions similar to this.)"

    Yes, and answers that preserve the faith, at least to the satisfaction of the person answering and like-minded folks, have been worked out for all of them.

    This isn't a dig; it's a time-saving fact for all concerned.
  6. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    20 Jan '14 19:13
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    The laws laid down in the Torah, specifically Numbers, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, all form the Mosaic Law, since these were handed down from God by Moses, whom they called the Lawgiver.

    It is made clear in the NT that these laws only still apply to Jews.
    Do Christians believe that their god wants;
    1. Jews to follow Mosaic Law?
    OR
    2. Jews to flout Mosaic Law?
    OR
    3. Jews to become Christian?
    OR
    4. Something else which excludes 1,2,3 above?
  7. SubscriberSuzianne
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    20 Jan '14 19:51
    Originally posted by PatNovak
    So if only Jews are still required to follow Mosiac Law, are you OK with God expecting them to follow Mosaic Law?
    I don't follow what you're asking.

    Mosaic Law is for Jews specifically. I'm okay with that. Why wouldn't I be?
  8. SubscriberSuzianne
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    20 Jan '14 19:53
    Originally posted by JS357
    "We get this question all the time in here. (Well, questions similar to this.)"

    Yes, and answers that preserve the faith, at least to the satisfaction of the person answering and like-minded folks, have been worked out for all of them.

    This isn't a dig; it's a time-saving fact for all concerned.
    And anyone who reads the Bible, even non-believers, would probably get this concept the first time around.

    The answers don't really have to be worked out, they're there for anyone to see.
  9. SubscriberSuzianne
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    20 Jan '14 20:05
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Do Christians believe that their god wants;
    1. Jews to follow Mosaic Law?
    OR
    2. Jews to flout Mosaic Law?
    OR
    3. Jews to become Christian?
    OR
    4. Something else which excludes 1,2,3 above?
    All I know is that the Jews are God's chosen people. What this means specifically by today's standards, I don't know. Some Jews have come to Jesus. I guess that's between them and God. Since I'm not Jewish, I figure it's really none of my business.

    I do happen to believe that many Jews will convert to Christianity during the great Tribulation (I mean more than have done so already). I also believe that the second coming of Christ will fulfill Jewish prophecy about their messiah, so at that time, most if not all Jews (still living) will come to Christ. I believe this is done so that both prophecies, 1) that Jews who've died before Christ appeared are still saved, by right of being God's chosen people, and 2) that what Christ said, that "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" will be fulfilled as well.
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    20 Jan '14 20:10
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    See, I don't like that commandment, so I will say it was just for the Israelites at that time. But I like tithing, because my church needs money, so I will say that one is for everyone. Also, I saw two dudes make out the other day, and it was icky, so I will say that Lev. 18:22 is for everyone.

    Ahem. Global replace: "I will say" -> "God clearly intended that".
    You're my favourite atheist.
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    20 Jan '14 20:14
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    I don't follow what you're asking.

    Mosaic Law is for Jews specifically. I'm okay with that. Why wouldn't I be?
    I am saying that the Mosaic Law parts of the Bible contain what many would view as objectionable commands. God may not expect Christians to still follow these commands, but you say that God still expects Jews to follow these commands.

    More Examples (NIV):
    Leviticus 20:9 - Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. Because they have cursed their father or mother, their blood will be on their own head.
    Deuteronomy 22:20-21 - If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.
    Deuteronomy 23:1 - No one who has been emasculated by crushing or cutting may enter the assembly of the Lord.

    I am asking: are ok with your God expecting Jews to follow Mosaic Laws like these?
  12. SubscriberSuzianne
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    20 Jan '14 20:32
    Originally posted by PatNovak
    I am saying that the Mosaic Law parts of the Bible contain what many would view as objectionable commands. God may not expect Christians to still follow these commands, but you say that God still expects Jews to follow these commands.

    More Examples (NIV):
    Leviticus 20:9 - Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. Because they have ...[text shortened]... the Lord.

    I am asking: are ok with your God expecting Jews to follow Mosaic Laws like these?
    These cases were meant to be included in my disclaimer that I am not 100% sure how these laws are treated in the synagogues today. It's altogether possible that some of these laws, while still 'on the books', so to speak, are just not observed today, much like many state laws in the US prohibit cohabitation, but I know many couples living together without benefit of marriage and they aren't routinely hassled by police because the powers that be, police, the courts, etc., consider these laws archaic. I'm sure that Jews, as a whole, probably do consider many Mosaic laws archaic. But I don't rightly know, I'm assuming. I'm also guessing that the more devout Jews get by merely by not doing these things that are not allowed under Mosaic Law.

    I'm sort of with many here in this thread who state that following the spirit of the law is better than following the letter of the law. Personally, I'm not Jewish, so I can't exactly speak to what God thinks of Jews at all anyways. I imagine Jews will probably get cut some slack at Judgment Day. Since they're God's chosen people, I'd be okay with that. Of course, Christians are basically told to live and let live, also, so make of that what you will.
  13. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    20 Jan '14 20:39
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    These cases were meant to be included in my disclaimer that I am not 100% sure how these laws are treated in the synagogues today. It's altogether possible that some of these laws, while still 'on the books', so to speak, are just not observed today, much like many state laws in the US prohibit cohabitation, but I know many couples living together without ...[text shortened]... course, Christians are basically told to live and let live, also, so make of that what you will.
    Suzianne
    The question is not whether Jews follow Mosaic Law but what you
    think of those that follow Mosaic Law.
    My similar question was what do you think god wants Jews?
  14. SubscriberSuzianne
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    20 Jan '14 21:181 edit
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Suzianne
    The question is not whether Jews follow Mosaic Law but what you
    think of those that follow Mosaic Law.
    My similar question was what do you think god wants Jews?
    I think I answered that, as I answered your question as well, four posts above your post that asks me again.

    Basically, that I'm not Jewish, so I don't rightly consider it any of my business.

    God's interaction with Jews at Judgment is likely to be different than his interaction with Christians at Judgment.
  15. Standard memberRJHinds
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    20 Jan '14 21:344 edits
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Do Christians believe that their god wants;
    1. Jews to follow Mosaic Law?
    OR
    2. Jews to flout Mosaic Law?
    OR
    3. Jews to become Christian?
    OR
    4. Something else which excludes 1,2,3 above?
    The old covenant laws were for all the people of Israel until Jesus came to make a new covenant according to the scriptures. The Jew refused to accept the new covenant, but God made it impossible to follow the old covenant by destroying their temple and scattering the people.

    Christians believe that Christ is waiting for the Jews to accept Him and His new covenant.

    “At the same time,” says the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”

    (Jeremiah 31:1 NKJV)

    “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah — not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

    (Jeremiah 31:31-34 NKJV)

    For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

    Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

    “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
    But a body You have prepared for Me.
    In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
    You had no pleasure.
    Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
    In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
    To do Your will, O God.’”

    Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

    But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

    “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


    (Hebrews 10-18 NKJV)

    Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

    (Luke 22:20 NKJV)
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