1. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
    Boston Lad
    USA
    Joined
    14 Jul '07
    Moves
    43012
    16 Nov '13 19:361 edit
    Did Laidlaw, Broun, Stoppard, Chesterton and Goethe get it wrong?

    1) "God exists whether or not men may choose to believe in Him. The reason why many people do not believe in God is not so much that it is intellectually impossible to believe in God, but because belief in God forces that thoughtful person to face the fact that he is accountable to such a God." -Robert A. Laidlaw; 2) "Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God." -Heywood Broun; 3) "Atheism is a crutch for those who cannot bear the reality of God." -Tom Stoppard; 4) "If there were no God, there would be no Atheists." -G. K. Chesterton; 5) "The greatest act of faith takes place when a man finally decides that he is not God." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe) Your thoughtful replies?
  2. Joined
    31 May '06
    Moves
    1795
    16 Nov '13 23:10
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Did Laidlaw, Broun, Stoppard, Chesterton and Goethe get it wrong?

    1) "God exists whether or not men may choose to believe in Him. The reason why many people do not believe in God is not so much that it is intellectually impossible to believe in God, but because belief in God forces that thoughtful person to face the fact that he is accountable ...[text shortened]... a man finally decides that he is not God." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe) Your thoughtful replies?[/b]
    Did Laidlaw, Broun, Stoppard, Chesterton and Goethe get it wrong?


    Yes. They got it wrong.

    1) "God exists whether or not men may choose to believe in Him. The reason why many people
    do not believe in God is not so much that it is intellectually impossible to believe in God, but because
    belief in God forces that thoughtful person to face the fact that he is accountable to such a God."

    -Robert A. Laidlaw;


    "God exists whether or not men may choose to believe in Him. ..."
    Well that's wrong strait off the bat. A gods existence MAY be independent of whether or not people
    believe that god exists, but to assert that "God exists" in the definitive is just plain wrong, and dishonest.

    "... The reason why many people do not believe in God is not so much that it is intellectually impossible to
    believe in God, but because belief in God forces that thoughtful person to face the fact that he is
    accountable to such a God."
    Oh dear, yet another theist pontificating wildly about what they think atheists must think without actually
    asking any of them. I, and many atheists like me, don't believe in the existence of gods because there is
    no evidence that gods exist, and plenty that they don't. In short, I don't believe in god because god does
    not actually exist. period.
    However if such a god as the one you believe in did exist and there was sound reason and evidence to justify
    believing that your god existed then I would believe in the existence of your god even though I would find your
    gods existence to be an unpleasant fact.

    So Laidlaw got it wrong.

    2) "Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God."
    -Heywood Broun;


    Well I don't have any statistics on this, however I would generally expect that a theist who regularly goes to
    church and really genuinely believes that god/s exist will mention and talk about (or to) gods a deal more often
    than people who don't go to church or believe god/s exist.

    Certainly in my personal experience, god/s are almost never mentioned either by me or my friends or family (almost
    all atheists) except when the subject is brought up by a theist. Gods are not relevant to atheists, if the subject comes
    up at all when talking between ourselves it usually talking about the PEOPLE who believe in such wacky things as gods,
    not about the gods themselves.

    So unless you can present statistics that say otherwise...

    Broun got it wrong too.

    3) "Atheism is a crutch for those who cannot bear the reality of God."
    -Tom Stoppard;


    Um... Just no... atheism is simply the label for the absence of theism, and isn't a crutch of any kind.
    And gods don't exist...

    So Stoppard is wrong too.

    4) "If there were no God, there would be no Atheists."
    -G. K. Chesterton;


    Wrong. If there were no THEISTS (i.e. people who BELIEVE that gods exist) then there would be no need for the
    label 'atheist' because everyone would be one.

    So a pithy but wrong for G. K. Chesterton.

    5) "The greatest act of faith takes place when a man finally decides that he is not God."
    - Johann Wolfgang Goethe;


    What about women?

    Um, no... The greatest act of faith takes place when a person believes the most implausible thing on the least amount
    of evidence or against the greatest amount of contrary evidence... or something along those lines.

    Also "... finally decides that he is not god." ... I for one have never believed that I am god, or even a god...
    Although that might be fun for a bit...
    People who think that they are gods tend to end up in insane asylums... or running large multinationals or countries...
    Not thinking that you are a god when you are not is perfectly rational...
    The leap of faith would be thinking that you were a god.

    So Goethe is wrong too.

    So that's 5 for 5, all wrong.

    Next?
  3. SubscriberSuzianne
    Misfit Queen
    Isle of Misfit Toys
    Joined
    08 Aug '03
    Moves
    35529
    16 Nov '13 23:17
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]Did Laidlaw, Broun, Stoppard, Chesterton and Goethe get it wrong?

    1) "God exists whether or not men may choose to believe in Him. The reason why many people do not believe in God is not so much that it is intellectually impossible to believe in God, but because belief in God forces that thoughtful person to face the fact that he is accountable ...[text shortened]... hen a man finally decides that he is not God." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe) Your thoughtful replies?[/b]
    Taking these 5 opinions right at face value, I say no.

    Now no doubt they all had their own particular axe to grind with these statements (they all sound a bit like 'atheist-trolling' to me), I can't say they're wrong, either. In other words, I agree with their opinions.

    That's all. And you all know what they say about opinions. Therefore there is also no right or wrong answer to the OP.
  4. SubscriberSuzianne
    Misfit Queen
    Isle of Misfit Toys
    Joined
    08 Aug '03
    Moves
    35529
    16 Nov '13 23:28
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    ...to assert that "God exists" in the definitive is just plain wrong, and dishonest.

    I don't believe in god because god does
    not actually exist. period.

    And gods don't exist...
    Hmmm, first this:
    ...to assert that "God exists" in the definitive is just plain wrong, and dishonest.


    And then this:
    I don't believe in god because god does
    not actually exist. period.


    And then this:
    And gods don't exist...


    Interesting. Your bias is showing. You state that to assert that "God exists" as a definitive statement is not only wrong, but dishonest. By the same token, to assert that "God does not exist" as a definitive statement is just as wrong, and just as dishonest. But you go ahead, not just once but twice to "assert that 'God does not exist' " and therefore not only are you wrong, but dishonest.
  5. SubscriberSuzianne
    Misfit Queen
    Isle of Misfit Toys
    Joined
    08 Aug '03
    Moves
    35529
    16 Nov '13 23:30
    By the way, GF, welcome back. Things weren't quite the same here without you. 🙂
  6. Joined
    31 May '06
    Moves
    1795
    16 Nov '13 23:31
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Taking these 5 opinions right at face value, I say no.

    Now no doubt they all had their own particular axe to grind with these statements (they all sound a bit like 'atheist-trolling' to me), I can't say they're wrong, either. In other words, I agree with their opinions.

    That's all. And you all know what they say about opinions. Therefore there is also no right or wrong answer to the OP.
    Opinions an be right or wrong.

    If a person were to say that 'in their opinion' "evolution doesn't happen"
    or that 'in their opinion' "increasing CO2 has no effect on the climate"
    then those 'opinions' would be factually wrong.

    When "Robert A. Laidlaw" says that in his opinion "many atheists don't believe
    in a god because of reason x" and it turns out that reason x is a load of nonsense
    that hasn't even occurred to the vast majority of atheists as a possible reason
    let alone be their primary reason for not-believing then his 'opinion' is factually wrong.

    Also highly Christian, monotheistic, centred... atheists don't believe in the existence
    of ANY gods, not just your singular Christian god. And as a rational, his suggestion
    doesn't even make sense for many posited gods.


    So, actually there are right and wrong answers to the question "did they get it wrong?".

    While people are entitled to their opinions... they are not immune from being right or wrong
    where those opinions touch on matters of objective fact.
  7. SubscriberSuzianne
    Misfit Queen
    Isle of Misfit Toys
    Joined
    08 Aug '03
    Moves
    35529
    16 Nov '13 23:35
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    While people are entitled to their opinions... they are not immune from being right or wrong
    where those opinions touch on matters of objective fact.
    Then by your own logic, you are not only wrong yourself, but dishonest, too.
  8. Joined
    31 May '06
    Moves
    1795
    16 Nov '13 23:461 edit
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Hmmm, first this:
    ...to assert that "God exists" in the definitive is just plain wrong, and dishonest.


    And then this:
    I don't believe in god because god does
    not actually exist. period.


    And then this:
    And gods don't exist...


    Interesting. Your bias is showing. You state that to assert that "God exists" a ...[text shortened]... wice to "assert that 'God does not exist' " and therefore not only are you wrong, but dishonest.
    Ahhh, but the difference is I'm right.

    It would be wrong and dishonest to claim that "the world is a flat disk
    supported on the back of four elephants themselves standing on the
    back of a star turtle"
    as fact...

    Because there is no evidence to justify such a claim, and considerable
    evidence against such a claim.

    You thus couldn't possibly 'know' that this was true (hence claiming that it is
    true as a fact is dishonest) and its wrong because the world is not "a flat disk..."
    ect ect...


    However I can claim that the world is "an irregular oblate spheroid" as fact
    because there is immense evidence that the world IS in fact an irregular
    oblate spheroid.

    There really is no evidence that gods exist, which you yourself have not only admitted
    but claim is vital so that people can believe on faith alone and not know
    because of evidence.
    Thus anyone claiming to 'know' god exists or claiming gods existence as a fact is
    being dishonest as they cannot possibly know that which they cannot provide ANY
    evidence for.
    And they are also wrong, as science has demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt
    (although not to an absolute certainty, because it never does) that gods don't exist.
    And the the tiny, not worth mentioning, probability that gods do exist is shared
    unequally between ALL POSSIBLE GOD CONCEPTS, of which the Christian monotheistic
    god concept is but one, and a particularly unlikely one at that.

    We can trace the invention of your god and religion throughout history, it's just as made up
    as the FSM, just longer ago.


    My claim that your god doesn't exist is not the same as your claim that it does.

    Because I'm right, and have the evidence of reality to prove it beyond all reasonable doubt,
    and your not.

    I know that sucks, but I am not the one who chooses to believe things based on irrational
    faith.

    It's pretty much guaranteed that most things believed based on faith will be wrong.
    That's why I don't believe anything on faith.




    EDIT: Oh, and good to see you too... Even if you do think I should be murdered by your god in the afterlife.
  9. Joined
    31 May '06
    Moves
    1795
    16 Nov '13 23:48
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Then by your own logic, you are not only wrong yourself, but dishonest, too.
    Cross posting, see my post above ;-)
  10. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
    Boston Lad
    USA
    Joined
    14 Jul '07
    Moves
    43012
    17 Nov '13 01:41
    Did Day, Lewis, Chambers, Lincoln and Gandhi also get it wrong?

    "Still, even the most admirable of atheists is nothing more than a moral parasite, living his life based on borrowed ethics. This is why, when pressed, the atheist will often attempt to hide his lack of conviction in his own beliefs behind some poorly formulated utilitarianism, or argue that he acts out of altruistic self-interest. But this is only post-facto rationalization, not reason or rational behavior." -Vox Day

    "Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought.

    But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It's like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can't trust my own thinking, of course I can't trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God." -C.S. Lewis, The Case for Christianity, p. 32.

    "The real attitude of sin in the heart towards God is that of being without God; it is pride, the worship of myself, that is the great atheistic fact in human life." -Oswald Chambers;

    "I can see how it might be possible for a man to look down upon the earth and be an atheist, but I cannot conceive how he could look up into the heavens and say there is no God." -Abraham Lincoln;

    "It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists." -Mohandas Gandhi
  11. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Infidel
    Dunedin
    Joined
    09 Jun '07
    Moves
    45641
    17 Nov '13 01:591 edit
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby

    "Still, even the most admirable of atheists is nothing more than a moral parasite, living his life based on borrowed ethics. This is why, when pressed, the atheist will often attempt to hide his lack of conviction in his own beliefs behind some poorly formulated utilitarianism, or est. But this is only post-facto rationalization, not reason or rational behavior." -Vox Day

    I suppose that's taken from The Irrational Atheist ?

    Borrowing ethics ... isn't that what theists do? Taking their moral code from
    holy books and preachers?

    Atheists think for themselves and live by their own code.
  12. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Infidel
    Dunedin
    Joined
    09 Jun '07
    Moves
    45641
    17 Nov '13 02:01
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    "It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists." -Mohandas Gandhi
    Who was Gandhi talking about? It cannot be atheists as they do not fight against god.
    Perhaps he was talking about anti-evolutionists?
  13. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
    Boston Lad
    USA
    Joined
    14 Jul '07
    Moves
    43012
    17 Nov '13 02:46
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    I suppose that's taken from The Irrational Atheist ?

    Borrowing ethics ... isn't that what theists do? Taking their moral code from
    holy books and preachers?

    Atheists think for themselves and live by their own code.
    "Atheists think for themselves and live by their own code."

    What would be the source of authority for their moral and ethical code?
  14. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Infidel
    Dunedin
    Joined
    09 Jun '07
    Moves
    45641
    17 Nov '13 02:49
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    "Atheists think for themselves and live by their own code."

    What would be the source of authority for their moral and ethical code?
    I am the source of my own morality. Authority? I do not need anyone's authority!
  15. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
    Boston Lad
    USA
    Joined
    14 Jul '07
    Moves
    43012
    17 Nov '13 02:541 edit
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Who was Gandhi talking about? It cannot be atheists as they do not fight against god.
    Perhaps he was talking about anti-evolutionists?
    "It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists." -Mohandas Gandhi

    "Who was Gandhi talking about?" -wolfgang59

    Appears his observation is similar, if not the same, as the one made in this quotation from my site profile:

    "If God didn't exist, what possible difference would it make whether or not people put their faith in Him?" -JV
Back to Top