Dionysus was the original jesus

Copied with permission from Glen Miller's Christian Thinktank
MR = Mystery Religions
DARG = Dying And Rising Gods

The MR of Dionysos (Bacchus).

Dionysos was the god of wine, and most of the cult was concerned with partying, to such an extent that the Roman Senate restricted its size and meeting frequency in 186 BC (NTSE:133). There were the vague intimations of renewal in the seasonal changes of the earth, but the similarities with Jesus are few and insubstantial. It is one of the older cults, going back into the 7th century B.C. but it was only turned into an MR during the Roman period.

This figure had many, many various and contradictory accounts of his exploits, but the two that are most closely related to the DARG scenario are the accounts of his birth:

Here is the first (and best-known) account:

"Philandering Zeus fell in love with Semele, princess of the house of Thebes and daughter of the Phoenician immigrant king Gadmus . Zeus came to her disguised as a mortal man, and Semele was soon pregnant. Hera, Zeus's queen, inflamed with jealousy, disguised herself as an old woman and hurried to Semele's door; her hair was straggly and her skin furrowed with wrinkles. For a while the two women chatted. When Semele revealed her affair with Zeus, the disguised Hera suggested that his claim to be king of the gods might be only a ploy; perhaps he was an ordinary mortal who made up the story to bring Semele to his bed. The old woman departed, and Semele doubted. When Zeus next came, she asked for just one wish. Zeus swore by the underworld river Styx that he would give whatever she asked. "Appear to me as you appear to Hera, when you make love to her!" Semele asked. Sorrowful, yet true to his word, Zeus appeared in all his glory, burning Semele to a crisp. Hermes saved the fetus and carried it to Zeus, who sewed it into his thigh. Three months later he removed the stitches, and Dionysus was born again. He was the twice-born god." [HI:CM3:250; note: I only count one birth here, at most]


And then another account, with logically precedes the other:

"Another myth told about his birth even more clearly established him in this role as a god of the mysteries. Zeus mated with his daughter Persephone, who bore a son, Zagreus, which is another name for Dionysus. In her jealousy, Hera then aroused the Titans to attack the child. These monstrous beings, their faces whitened with chalk, attacked the infant as he was looking in a mirror (in another version, they beguiled him with toys and cut him to pieces with knives). After the murder, the Titans devoured the dismembered corpse. But the heart of the infant god was saved and brought to Zeus by Athena; Dionysus was born again--swallowed by Zeus and begotten on Semele. Zeus was was angry with the Titans and destroyed them with his thunder and lightning; but from their ashes humankind was born." [HI:CMY6:223; this looks like a real birth and death, but not a 'resurrection'--going 'back out' as Zeus' seed into Semele is a stretch for the phase 'born again'...]


The Zagreus myth shows up in 'regular' Dionysusian and in 'Orphic' Dionysosian cults, in which one possible ritual act--the tearing apart a live animal and eating its raw flesh--is interpreted differently:

"Little is known of the actual mysteries of Dionysos, but presumably they were as diverse as the manifestations of the god. It seems likely that the Dionysian mysteries usually included eating and drinking. At least in the archaic and savage mysteries of Dionysos, as portrayed in Euripides' play The Bacchae, the initiates were said to tear animals to pieces (sparagmos) and eat the flesh raw (omophagia) as a way of assimilating the Dionysian power embodied within the animal. In more serene Bacchic rites, such as those of the lobacchoi in Athens, the meal was a banquet." [TAM:63]


But the more savage of the rituals were eliminated early in the cult history, but some traces of these show up in pre-Roman times [HI:CM3:276]:

"The presence of a crowd of witnesses fostered the experience of Dionysian ecstasy, as suggested in myth by the band of followers who always surround the god, the maenads and satyrs. Continuous dancing to the beating of drums and the playing of flutes, and the consumption of wine, led devotees to direct experience of the god. So did the communal tearing apart of an animal (sparagmos) and the eating of its raw flesh (omophagia). In prehistoric times this practice may have taken a cannibalistic form, with human beings as victims. In the myths, Pentheus is torn limb from limb (although not actually eaten) by the god's crazed followers, Ino boils her son in a pot, and the Minyads eat their own children. The myths no doubt exaggerate the more sensational forms of the cult; cannibalism and human sacrifice were abhorrent by the Archaic and Classical periods. Still, we have inscriptional evidence that Dionysus' followers really did practice the "eating of raw flesh" as late as the Hellenistic Period.

"Greek and Roman religions in general lacked creeds and claimed little moral authority, but they did develop local priesthoods, which eventually became integral parts of the institutions of the state. In this way the savage features of Dionysiac religion disappeared from the festivals of the Classical Period. Nevertheless, on several occasions the worship of Dionysus was felt to be a political threat. In Rome his cult grew to such proportions during the long and painful war with Carthage that in 186 B.C. an alarmed senate, after many executions, brought it under severe restrictions.


[The Orphics are sometimes classified as a mystery religion, under the category of Dionysus, but it is less certain that it constituted a group back then:

"The name of Orphism is sometimes used to describe the beliefs and practices of those who took part in mystery cults based on the poems attributed to Orpheus, or who engaged in ascetic practices. However, it is uncertain to what extent Orphism can be thought of as a unified spiritual movement." [HI:COCCL, s.v. "Orpheus"]

They did, however, have an opposite interpretation of the flesh-eating of Dionysus (arguing that it was not consistently understood as 'union with the god'!):

"About the Orphic mysteries of Dionysos we know somewhat more. Named after their founder Orpheus, whose myths depict him as a Thracian singer who tried to liberate his departed Eurydice from death and who was torn to pieces by Bacchantes (women maddened by Dionysos), the Orphics laid special claim to the god Dionysos, but did so in a peculiar manner. For the Orphics the Dionysian practice of omophagia became the original transgression, and they recounted the myth of Dionysos Zagreus in order to show the enormity of the sin of omophagia. According to the myth of Zagreus, it was the evil Titans who consumed Dionysos. Yet after Zeus incinerated the Titans for their wicked deed, human beings were created from the ashes. Thus, human beings are bipartite, according to the Orphics: they are composed of a Titanic nature (the fleshly body) and a Dionysian nature (the immortal soul). Although the Dionysian soul is imprisoned in a Titanic body (the soma, or body, is termed a sema, or tomb, by the Orphics), the soul may be delivered from its shackles by means of a life devoted to purity and realize its true Dionysian destiny. [TAM:64f]


But in any event, Dionysos career doesn't reveal "numerous, complex, and detailed" parallels with that of Jesus.

Is Jesus a copycat Dying and Rising God after Osiris ?

Copied with permission from Glen Miller's Christian Thinktank.

MR = Mystery Religion/s
DARG = Dying And Rising Gods.

The MR of Isis/Osiris/Serapis.


This MR was NOT the same as the earlier Osiris religion we looked at. This was a substantial modification of that religion by Ptolemy I in the Hellenistic period. So :

"Under Ptolemy I, the hellenistic ruler of Egypt from 305 to 285 B.C., a new cult was established in honor of Serapis, a composite deity whose attributes included features of Osiris (the God of the Nile), Aesclepius (the god of healing), Jupiter (the supreme Olympian god, Zeus, adapted for Roman use), and Pluto (the god of the underworld). In their efforts to create a one-world culture, the hellenistic rulers found a cult as inclusive as that of Serapis enormously useful, because people of diverse backgrounds could unite in honoring this divinity." [Kee in KOC:77]

"We touch here upon a most important element in the comparisons which can be made between Egyptian and Asiatic cults--the influence of the Greeks. They, too, knew "the old Mediterranean ritual of sorrow with its periodic wailing for a departed divinity, hero or heroine," expressing "the emotion of natural man excited by the disappearance of verdure, by the gathering of the harvest, or by the fall of the year." The Greeks have not only identified Egyptian gods with their own but have used the Egyptian material creatively for their own ends. The spread of the cult of lsis throughout the Roman Empire is the outstanding example of an adaptation in which the original features disappeared almost completely. Most, if not all, of the information on Egyptian religion which classical authors offer is disfigured from the Egyptian point ofview. Even the oldest Greek source exemplifies the peculiarly Greek tendency to transmute every borrowed trait into an expression of Hellenic thought; Herodotus (ii. 59) equated Isis with Demeter. [Frankfort, opcit, p.291f]

The cult of Osiris (Egyptian) was transformed into an MR of Serapis by Ptolemy. The MR version made inroads into Rome--from Egypt--during the reign of Caligula (A.D. 37-41), and although Osiris was certainly a dying (but NOT 'rising'😉 god, we know that Serapis was NOT a dying god at all. He was a deliberate mixture of deities without a DARG motif (e.g., Osiris, Zeus) and he was acclaimed for his healing abilites (because of his assimilation of Aesculapius). But again, the closest any of the component deities come to DARGs is in Osiris, which we have already seen to be dying-but-not-rising. [The Apis bull motif doesn't help much either, since when the bull dies, it becomes Osiris in the underworld--and thus doesn't escape the underworld at all. And of course, they then had to go an find a replacement bull (the bulls were actually mummified, signifying their continued existence in the realm of the dead--NOT in the realm of the living.)]

Originally posted by redbarons
Horus/Attis/Mithra/Krishna/Zoroastra/Dionysus/ all virgin birth all had 12 disciples most crucified some slain all resurrected after 3 days many known as lamb of god or king of kings all had star in the east all wise all teachers all sons of their god.

Typical structure of Christ Mythers' arguments to show Jesus is a "copy-cat" savior lifted from mythology:

From Christian Thinktank (copied with permission)

These alleged "identicalities" generally attempt to identify Jesus with deities within a couple of categories (which have some overlap).

First there are the "Dying and Rising Gods" (e.g. Adonis, Baal (and Hadad), Marduk, Osiris, Tammuz/Dumuzi, Melquart, Eshmun), popularized in James G. Frazer's The Golden Bough [WR:GB]


Secondly are the figures in the Mystery Religions (e.g. Mithra, Dionysos, Hellenistic period Isis/Osirus).


Third, there are the more "major players" (e.g. Buddha, Krishna)


Finally are the figures that are allegedly linked by broader motifs such as 'miracle worker', 'savior' or 'virgin born'--heroes and divine men-- without an explicit death/resurrection notion (e.g. Indra, Thor, Horus?)

/Attis/

Attis (p. 523). "The complex mythology of Attis is largely irrelevant to the question of dying and rising deities. In the old, Phrygian versions, Attis is killed by being castrated, either by himself or by another; in the old Lydian version, he is killed by a boar. In neither case is there any question of his returning to life...Neither myth nor ritual offer any warrant for classifying Attis as a dying and rising deity."


"All of the attempts in the scholarly literature to identify Attis as a dying and rising deity depend not on the mythology but rather on the ritual, in particular a questionable interpretation of the five-day festival of Cybele on 22-27 March. The question of the relationship between the Day of Blood (24 March) and the Day of Joy (25 March) caught the attention of some scholars, who, employing the analogy of the relationship of Good Friday to Easter Sunday, reasoned that if among other activities on the Day of Blood there was mourning for Attis, then the object of the 'joy' on the following day must be Attis's resurrection. Unfortunately, there is no evidence that this was the case. The Day of Joy is a late addition to what was once a three-day ritual in which the Day of Blood was followed by a purificatory ritual and the return of the statue of the goddess to the temple. Within the cult, the new feast of the Day of Joy celebrates Cybele. The sole text that connects the Day of Joy with Attis is a fifth-century biography of Isidore the Dialectician by the Neoplatonic philosopher Damascius, who reports that Isidore once had a dream in which he was Attis and the Day of Joy was celebrated in his honor!" [p.523]

There are several accounts of Attis' death (and relationship to Cybele):

"Attis was born in Phrygia of human parents, normal except for the fact that he was unable to beget children. As an adult, he moved to Lydia and established the rites of the Mother there. These rites attracted an enormous following, more so than the cult of Zeus, with the result that Zeus was jealous and sent a boar to kill Attis. In view of the manner of his death, the Galatian residents of Pessinous refused to eat pork." [ascribed to Hermesianax, in Pausanias 7.17.9, from HI:ISGM:240, no mention of resurrection, etc.]


"A more grisly variant on this narrative can be found in Servius' Commentary on Aeneid 9.115. In Servius' story, too, Attis becomes conspicuous for his devotions to the Magna Mater, but in this account Attis's undoing is his physical beauty, which attracts the attention of the king of his (unnamed) city. To escape the advances of this king, Attis flees from the city to the forest, but the king pursues him and rapes him. Attis retaliates by castrating the king, who then castrates Attis in turn. Attis is found by the attendants of the Mother's temple lying under a pine tree, dying of his wounds. They try unsuccessfully to save him, and after his death, they institute an annual period of mourning in his honor, during which the goddess's attendants, here called archigalli, castrate themselves in memory of Attis." [HI:ISGM:240n11; no mention of resurrection--only perpetual death]


"Diodorus preserves a rather simple tale in which the human Cybele, cast out by her parents, falls in love with the handsome young shepherd Attis. She becomes pregnant by him but then is recognized by her parents and taken in again. When they learn of her pregnancy, they cause Attis to be killed, whereupon Cybele goes mad with grief and wanders through the countryside. Eventually, after a famine, she is recognized as a goddess and Attis is worshipped with her. Because his body had long since disappeared, an image of him served as the focal point of his cult" [HI:ISGM:241]


“Attis rages round like a wild maenad, until he falls down exhausted, under a pine-tree and in an access of insanity emasculates himself. Only when he sees Attis dying of his mutilation does Agdistis regret his behavior, beseeching Zeus to raise Attis from the dead and resuscitate him. The god does not refuse Agdistis’ request completely, and allows Attis’ body to remain uncorrupted, his hair to grow on and his ‘little finger’ to stay alive and move continuously (digitorum ut minimissimus vivat).” [from Ovid, Pausanias, Arnobious, et.al. XCA:91]


Notice that none of these accounts have even a semi-resurrection or semi-rebirth aspect in them...

Originally posted by redbarons
Horus/Attis/Mithra/Krishna/Zoroastra/Dionysus/ all virgin birth all had 12 disciples most crucified some slain all resurrected after 3 days many known as lamb of god or king of kings all had star in the east all wise all teachers all sons of their god.

dionysus was not a product of virgin birth. zeus fooled around with a mortal, again and apparently like this one that he made him a god. at no point did he save anyone, at no point did he die.


as much as i don't agree with hercules as a jesus-like figure, dionysus makes even less sense.

Originally posted by redbarons
anyone know about this guy

Which guy? dionysus or Jesus? 🙄

Copied with permission from Christian Thinktank, are some concluding remarks from a long article analyzing claims of "Jesus Mythers".

MR stands for Mystery Religions
DARG stands for Dying and Rising Gods

The Net of the allegation of material, significant, and pervasive borrowing:

1.) For alleged parallels to be considered 'strong enough' for evaluation, the parallels must be numerous, complex, detailed, non-superficial, 'striking'/uncommon, difficult to explain [except] [edited sonship] by borrowing, central to the belief/text, sharing the same underlying ideas and related by system or structure.

2.) The history-of-religions school, which saw the background of Paul's 'dying and rising with Christ' theology in the Mystery Religions (e.g., taurobolium ritual) has been essentially abandoned, due to the insufficiency of the parallels and the better explanatory power of newer theories, based on better data (e.g., DSS, unofficial Judaism at the time of Jesus)

3.) The background for the New Testament is now seen to be in Judaism and the OT, instead of the cults of the Roman Empire.

4.) The details of the Cybele-oriented taurobolium ceremony are vastly different in practice, purpose, and belief-content.

5.) By scholarly criteria, there are no known very-close-parallels to the virgin conception as recorded in the New Testament.

6.) Only data relevant to New Testament formation can count as evidence for 'creation' or 'modification' of some 'original' Jesus from pagan sources--not later church actions.

7.) Any alleged syncretism by the later church does not in itself constitute data or evidence that the same process occured in NT times.

8.) The 'stealing' of Christmas (as it is sometimes represented) is not a clear case of culpable syncretism; indeed, as an 'oppositional feast' it is the OPPOSITE of a syncretistic action.

9.) All the data we have about Paul and the early church indicates that they were 'violently' anti-syncretistic, and exceptionally exclusivistic, and therefore pre-disposed to NOT accept anything 'tainted' by pagan theology.

10.) The pagans in this period were not confused about the Church's exclusivity--they called the Christians 'atheists' because of their fundamental unwillingness to compromise or syncretize.

10.) Long after the NT was finished, the church was thrust into a difficult situation when it became the "State Religion". The practical difficulties of trying to help immense numbers of new 'converts' created situations in which some reclaiming of traditional pagan elements had to be undertaken, albeit reluctantly and with all attempts to avoid confusing the folk.

11.) But even through these semi-adaptations occured in later church history, the central creed of the faith remained the same during that time.

12.) Another example sometimes advanced as a case of borrowing is the symbol of the Cross, but this was not used symbolically in the New Testament at all.

13.) The religious language used in the New Testament was part of the shared vocabulary of the ancient word, and not the property of the cults. As such, these terms didn't have to be 'borrowed' from anyone, since no one 'owned them' exclusively.

14.) Religious terms for religious leaders are examples of common, shared linguistic stock (often very general and arising all over the world) and not items that have to be 'borrowed'.
15.) This usage of language was effective for the young church, for even her critics such as Celsus could see clearly how her doctrines of Christ and of the resurrection were different from pagan concepts.

16.) The Frazerian concept of Dying and Rising gods (as set out in the Golden Bough) has been discredited and abandoned by modern scholarship.

...

20.) The various gods surveyed--Adonis, Baal, Attis, Marduk, Osiris, Tammuz and Melqart--do not conform to the Frazerian "pattern" of DARGs; they either don't really die, don't really rise after death, or both/neither...

21.) Even in those cases in which the god dies or is 'raised', the parallels to Jesus are still quite superficial, and do not fit the criteria of 'numerous, complex, detailed, etc'.

...

23.) There is evidence that the cults/empire did imitate aspects of the Christian community/belief system/praxis.

...

26.) The MR's differed substantially from Christianity in areas of : initiation, baptism, "communion", salvation, the afterlife, rebirth, resurrection.

...

28.) The Christian difference in worldview, ethics, compassion, and social action was conspicuous [edited] to the church's enemies and to those who longed for hope.

29.) It is not at all clear as to what extent the pagans even believed their own myths.

30.) The more general MR's of Isis/Serapis and Dionysos/Bacchus offer very few possible parallels even for consideration, and these are too general to have much force.

31.) Jesus' turning water into wine is not believed to have been 'based on' the various miraculous traditions in the Dionysos cult (but rather on the Judaic background).

32.) Neither the Roman nor the Indian/Iranian versions of the Mithras cults offer a DARG or even 'striking parallels' in matters of practice. The parallels accepted by scholars some 30 years ago have all either been abandoned or come under serious doubt recently.

33.) Paul's being born in Tarsus--a hotbed of MR cult activity--does not seem to influence him. His writing style and missionary style show no influence of his background in Tarsus.

34.) Alleged parallels between Jesus and Buddha--at a numerous, complex, and detailed level--are not recognized by scholars deeply familiar with both traditions.

35.) Horus is particularly 'unlike' Jesus of Nazareth.

36.) Alleged parallels between Jesus and Krishna--at a numerous, complex, and detailed level--do not exist.

37.) The category of Divine Man--once thought to be a concept useful in explaining the origin of some of Jesus' literary characteristics--has lost its following in scholarship over the past 30 years.

Originally posted by sonship
Copied with permission from Christian Thinktank, are some concluding remarks from a long article analyzing claims of "Jesus Mythers".

MR stands for Mystery Religions
DARG stands for Dying and Rising Gods

[b] The Net of the allegation of material, significant, and pervasive borrowing:

1.) For alleged parallels to be considered ...[text shortened]... terary characteristics--has lost its following in scholarship over the past 30 years.

[/b]

summarize and post link. in the years since you post here, you still haven't learnt that walls of text are pointless in a forum. we have difficulties staying on topic, of replying a certain argument with counter argument.


and here you are, posting the entire internet. seriously.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
summarize and post link. in the years since you post here, you still haven't learnt that walls of text are pointless in a forum. we have difficulties staying on topic, of replying a certain argument with counter argument.


and here you are, posting the entire internet. seriously.

I think that those readers who are REALLY interested will read it.

This is from my personal experience. When I was seeking, searching, I was cleaning out an attic. I came across an outline of a Christian conference. It was a thick clump of stapled papers of multiple points and paragraphs. I sat there for the next hour and read through every page of it in fascination.

Rightly or wrongly, I believe there are a few people out there like this.
If they really want some good information on whether Jesus was a "copycat" dying and rising deity borrowed from mythology, I think they will read.

If one out of twenty such people take the time, it is worth it.

So while I agree with a lot of your point and would even plead guilty to some of it, so called "walls of text" are not always bad in an internet forum.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
summarize and post link. in the years since you post here, you still haven't learnt that walls of text are pointless in a forum. we have difficulties staying on topic, of replying a certain argument with counter argument.


and here you are, posting the entire internet. seriously.

For you. The short version:

Horus/Attis/Mithra/Krishna/Zoroastra/Dionysus/ all virgin birth all had 12 disciples most crucified some slain all resurrected after 3 days many known as lamb of god or king of kings all had star in the east all wise all teachers all sons of their god.

Not.

Originally posted by sonship
Copied with permission from Christian Thinktank, are some concluding remarks from a long article analyzing claims of "Jesus Mythers".

Way to kill a thread! 😴

Originally posted by sonship
I think that those readers who are [b] REALLY interested will read it.

This is from my personal experience. When I was seeking, searching, I was cleaning out an attic. I came across an outline of a Christian conference. It was a thick clump of stapled papers of multiple points and paragraphs. I sat there for the next hour and read through ev ...[text shortened]... plead guilty to some of it, so called "walls of text" are not always bad in an internet forum.[/b]

even your "no, shutup, i post walls of text if i want to" is a mile long

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
even your "no, shutup, i post walls of text if i want to" is a mile long

Hey " When life hands you a lemon, break out the tequila and the salt. "

Originally posted by sonship
Hey " When life hands you a lemon, break out the tequila and the salt. "

Is that what your mom did when she goy you?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Is that what your mom did when she goy you?

And I thought the "no, ur mom does" answers all came from mental five-year-olds.

Originally posted by Suzianne
And I thought the "no, ur mom does" answers all came from mental five-year-olds.

😞