"Do we have a soul or not? Prove it!" (2015)

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Original post by phillip beer (on 01 Jun '04 16:34) Thread 11214 (7 Pages)
Do we have a soul or not? Prove it!

"It is the oldest of questions. Do we have an eternal soul or do we die and that is it. What is the nature of our consciousness?"

Note: Recently found this eleven year old thread while searching for something else. It ...[text shortened]... quite awhile yet is still relevant to many other threads on this spirituality forum. Your insights?

Originally posted by phillip beer (OP)
"It is the oldest of questions. Do we have an eternal soul or do we die and that is it. What is the nature of our consciousness?"

Originally posted by rgoudie (Page 2)
"I prefer to think that we are souls that currently occupy human bodies.

-Ray."

Originally posted by sonhouse
So the gist of what you are saying is only Christians have somehow been granted a soul but evryone else whonuis not Christian has no soul? Does that mean an infant has no soul till it is baptized? If so, does it matter what denomination does the baptism? A baptist or
Pentacostal, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Mormon, Jehovah witness? All of these baptism ...[text shortened]... r one?

And so all Muslims, Jaynes, Hindu's, Druse, they don't have and never will have souls?

That's not what I said at all, I said everyone has a soul, even animals.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
What if you receive an organ transplant? Is that transplant also a partial soul transplant?

If it is alive. If it is dead, no.

Originally posted by sonship

Just as the body is not alive without the soul, so the soul cannot live on its own without a body. The soul is not a ghost that lives on after the body dies.

Samuel the prophet died and was buried in Ramah [b]( 1 Sam. 25:1). Years latter something of him was brought up from the realm of death. Five times we are told it was Samuel [b ...[text shortened]... issue of Samuel's soul being consulted (however legally or illegally) after his physical death.[/b]

Yes, I do believe something came up. Remember, this was a Witch who conjured up something. What it was I do not know. I don't trust witches.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Insightful questions, Agerg. They will be individually addressed gradually before this thread is eventually archived. As a university professor once said to me late one afternoon in his office: "Bobby, the confusion of knowledge is worse than ignorance."

How about an answer now? or at least an acknowledgement that you don't have the faintest idea what a soul is, since all you really have is vague and or magical words for it.

If conciousness is considered part of the soul, then there are two basic problems to deal with:
1. It is undeniable that conciousness is substantially tied to the physical brain. Changing the brain changes the conciousness. The connection is so strong that it seems unreasonable to believe that conciousness would survive without the brain.
2. Continuity. My conciousness of today is not my conciousness of yesterday or 10 years ago. If my conciousness of 10 years ago is placed in heaven, then that is not who I identify as 'me'. The problem comes in when I get Alzheimers and loose all my memories and my conciousness goes insane and then I die. What conciousness continues after death? The insane memoryless one? The one just two days before Alzheimers started?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
That's not what I said at all, I said everyone has a soul, even animals.

There's no support in the Word of God for the commonly held notion [and understandably compassionate wish of many people of all ages who love their domesticated household pets] that "animals" are given souls at the moment of birth. Their "life is in their blood" which means they cease to exist at the moment of physical death. "Our souls, however, are immortal: the unique person which is the permanent home: "of our self consciousness; mentality; conscience and volition." "which will reside at one of two addresses for eternity." (Page 1)

Originally posted by Agerg
How about an answer now? or at least an acknowledgement that you don't have the faintest idea what a soul is, since all you really have is vague and or magical words for it.

Originally posted by Agerg
"How about an answer now? or at least an acknowledgement that you don't have the faintest idea what a soul is, since all you really have is vague and or magical words for it."
_______________________________

Agerg, if I "don't have the faintest idea what a soul is" and all I "really have is vague and or magical words for it." why on God's green earth would you possibly waste your time asking me these questions in the first place? Please regain your objectivity.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by phillip beer (OP)
"It is the oldest of questions. Do we have an eternal soul or do we die and that is it. What is the nature of our consciousness?"

Originally posted by rgoudie (Page 2)
"I prefer to think that we are souls that currently occupy human bodies.

-Ray."

Originally posted by Coletti (Page 3) Thread 11214 (7 Pages)
"My answer is the soul is essentially the thing that is a person, and it is what is gone from the body when a person dies. Soul is the rational mind, but independent of the brain, since it is immaterial."

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Agerg, if I "don't have the faintest idea what a soul is" and all I "really have is vague and or magical words for it." why on God's green earth would you possibly waste your time asking me these questions in the first place?

Because its fun to watch you squirm?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
There's no support in the Word of God for the commonly held notion [and understandably compassionate wish of many people of all ages who love their domesticated household pets] that "animals" are given souls at the moment of birth. Their "life is in their blood" which means they cease to exist at the moment of physical death. "Our souls, however, are im ...[text shortened]... ty; conscience and volition." "which will reside at one of two addresses for eternity." (Page 1)

I totally disagree. You listen to too much tradition, so it seems.

Soul is Nephesh in Hebrew...

OT:5315 <START HEBREW>vp#n#
<END HEBREW> nephesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Gen 2:17

19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
KJV

Do you see the word "creature"? Guess what Hebrew word it is?
Nephesh, look it up.

J P Moreland Phd. has four earned degrees including - Chemistry, Philosophy, and Theology (not sure of the other).

Dr. Moreland has a few in depth lectures on the human soul on YouTube:

1.) "What's Consciousness ... and Evidence for the Existence of the Soul"

YouTube

2.) "Neuroscience and the Soul - Full Interview with J P Moreland"

YouTube

3.) "The Soul: Does it Exist?" Interview with J P Moreland " (Greg Koukle from Stand To Reason is the interviewer )

YouTube

Originally posted by twhitehead

2. Continuity. My conciousness of today is not my conciousness of yesterday or 10 years ago. If my conciousness of 10 years ago is placed in heaven, then that is not who I identify as 'me'.

Does that mean that if you commit a crime today, you may argue with the court next week that it wasn't YOU that was responsible ?

What does such an understanding do for moral responsibility if "me" continually goes away every so often? Hey, do I really owe anything on my utility bills ?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Yes, I do believe something came up. Remember, this was a Witch who conjured up something. What it was I do not know. I don't trust witches.

Concerning the experience of Saul, the witch of Endor and Samuel:

Yes, I do believe something came up. Remember, this was a Witch who conjured up something. What it was I do not know. I don't trust witches.

I think that God intervened and permitted the soul of Samuel to come up.

1.) He came up accompanied by what the witch thought were "gods". Probably these were angels.

2.) The witch was shocked. She may have been used to either familiar demonic activity or trickery. At any rate this experience was clearly a surprise to her.

3.) You may not trust witches but you can trust the Bible that it repeatedly informs us that it WAS Samuel. I think about five times we are informed that it was Samuel.

So I think you are hesitantly pleading non-commitment through ignorance. "What it was I do not know" is kind of weak reinforcement for you strong positions otherwise.

Originally posted by sonship
Concerning the experience of Saul, the witch of Endor and Samuel:

Yes, I do believe something came up. Remember, this was a Witch who conjured up something. What it was I do not know. I don't trust witches.

I think that God intervened and permitted the soul of Samuel to come up.

1.) He came up accompanied by what the witch though ...[text shortened]... hat it was I do not know" [/i] is kind of weak reinforcement for you strong positions otherwise.

Saul asked the witch 'What do you see?' 'I see a spirit coming up from the earth,' she answered. 14 'What does it look like?' he asked. 'It’s an old man . . . He is wearing a cloak.' Then Saul knew that it was Samuel . . . (1Samuel 28:13 - 14)
The vision that appeared to Saul through the witch of Endor was NOT really Samuel. The Hebrew word for 'medium,' 'spiritists' and so on are belowb, which means, "possessing a familiar spirit." God spoke about what he thought about such people and warned others not to consult them.
Do not go for advice to people who consult the spirits of the dead (Leviticus 19:31, see also 20:6)
27 Any man or woman who consults the spirits of the dead shall be stoned to death; (Leviticus 20:27)
He had Moses tell the children of Israel that it was the practices of the original inhabitants of the land of Canaan, such as human sacrifice, divination, sorcery, witchcraft and consulting the dead, that had caused Him to decide that the Israelites would take their land from them (Deuteronomy 18:9 - 14).
Although the Bible does not say the witch of Endor used the power of Satan to do her "consulting of the dead," we are told that she was possessed with a "familiar spirit", i.e., a demon, and by the scriptures quoted and many others, we know such things DO NOT come from God.
Whatever or whoever it was that Saul saw in the vision conjured by the witch, it certainly was not Samuel for he was dead (1Samuel 28:3). We also know that the dead "know nothing" and have no part "in any thing under the sun" (see Ecclesiastes 9:5 - 6). The vision told him that Israel was going to lose its battle, Saul and his sons would be killed, and the kingdom would be handed over to David. This is only PARTLY true. The enemy did not kill the king. Rather, he killed himself after receiving several wounds from Philistine archers (see 1Samuel 31:1-6; 2Samuel 1-5). God controls all things. Perhaps He controlled the vision that Saul saw, but I think it more likely that the demon in the witch of Endor took delight in taunting the king.
http://www.biblestudy.org/question/why-did-king-saul-use-witch-to-contact-prophet.html