1. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    06 Dec '05 04:16
    Hi,

    The line of thinking behind this thread is relatively simple. There is an apparent paradox in Christianity. God is stated to be both omnipotent and omnipresent, meaning he knows not only what you will do, but he'll also be there when you do it. Now, Christians believe that the soul, if you will, is created uniquely by God. Sooooo, God creates us, in full knowledge of what we will do in the future. If we will sin, and ultimately go to hell, then God created us for that purpose, in full knowledge of the decisions we will make.

    Thus, if God is to be omnipotent then surely there can be no self-determination, since our paths are already known by him. All bad decisions can then be vindicated by the excuse that God ordained it. I was reading the thread about Judas Iscariot and I felt I should touch on this subject. Judas was created by God, who had full knowledge he'd betray Christ. Doesn't sound like a very benevelent God who'd create someone to fry in hell.

    So, good people, what's it to be? Omnipotent creator who creates people to fry, or self determination by a diety who's not such a know it all.
  2. Hmmm . . .
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    06 Dec '05 04:30
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    Hi,

    The line of thinking behind this thread is relatively simple. There is an apparent paradox in Christianity. God is stated to be both omnipotent and omnipresent, meaning he knows not only what you will do, but he'll also be there when you do it. Now, Christians believe that the soul, if you will, is created uniquely by God. Sooooo, God creat ...[text shortened]... eator who creates people to fry, or self determination by a diety who's not such a know it all.
    Wow, hot topic! This very question is raging right now on the "WORD OF GOD" thread. You might want to check it out...
  3. Joined
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    06 Dec '05 04:52
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    Does free determination exist?
    No.

    I mean yes.

    Doh! 😕
  4. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    06 Dec '05 05:41
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Wow, hot topic! This very question is raging right now on the "WORD OF GOD" thread. You might want to check it out...
    Yes, Hi, I found that after I set this one up. It's a topic I've had in my head for several years, but never before had the opportunity to really geta good debate going...
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    06 Dec '05 16:04
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    Hi,

    The line of thinking behind this thread is relatively simple. There is an apparent paradox in Christianity. God is stated to be both omnipotent and omnipresent, meaning he knows not only what you will do, but he'll also be there when you do it. Now, Christians believe that the soul, if you will, is created uniquely by God. Sooooo, God creat ...[text shortened]... eator who creates people to fry, or self determination by a diety who's not such a know it all.
    All of mankind has been created with free will/choice. Yes GOD knows and understands the results of our choices. But HE does not force us to make the choices that we make.
    God did not create mankind for hell. Hell was created for Satan and his angels. Man choses to go there, by his own free will.
    All paths are known by GOD, and the results and the ends of those paths. But mankind has free choice of the paths we choose.
  6. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    06 Dec '05 18:25
    Originally posted by blindfaith101
    All of mankind has been created with free will/choice. Yes GOD knows and understands the results of our choices. But HE does not force us to make the choices that we make.
    God did not create mankind for hell. Hell was created for Satan and his angels. Man choses to go there, by his own free will.
    All paths are known by GOD, and the results and the ends of those paths. But mankind has free choice of the paths we choose.
    Now, I never stated that God forces us to do anything, merely that before he creates us he already knows what we'll do, and that some of us (and he knows which ones, being omnipotent) will sin and fall. Seems a bit cruel creating people under those circumstances, ones that he ones will fall.
  7. Standard memberColetti
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    06 Dec '05 21:42
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    Hi,

    The line of thinking behind this thread is relatively simple. There is an apparent paradox in Christianity. God is stated to be both omnipotent and omnipresent, meaning he knows not only what you will do, but he'll also be there when you do it. Now, Christians believe that the soul, if you will, is created uniquely by God. Sooooo, God creat ...[text shortened]... eator who creates people to fry, or self determination by a diety who's not such a know it all.
    "All bad decisions can then be vindicated by the excuse that God ordained it."

    Is that an excuse - or merely an assertion? The thing that needs to be shown, is that the fact that God as determined it, that you are excused from doing it. If saying "the Devil made me do it" is no excuse, why should "God made me do it" excuse you. After all, you acknowledge that God made you knowing in advance what you would do, so how can you assume this get's you off the hook? Support the conclusion, don't simply assert it.
  8. Belfast
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    06 Dec '05 21:45
    Originally posted by Coletti
    [b]"All bad decisions can then be vindicated by the excuse that God ordained it."

    Is that an excuse - or merely an assertion?
    Well if Christian doctrine is to be believed, it's a fact.
  9. Standard memberColetti
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    06 Dec '05 22:05
    Originally posted by lukemcmullan
    Well if Christian doctrine is to be believed, it's a fact.
    What's a fact? And if it's Christian doctrine, it must be supported by Scripture.
  10. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    06 Dec '05 22:22
    Originally posted by Coletti
    "All bad decisions can then be vindicated by the excuse that God ordained it."

    Is that an excuse - or merely an assertion? The thing that needs to be shown, is that the fact that God as determined it, that you are excused from doing it. If saying "the Devil made me do it" is no excuse, why should "God made me do it" excuse you. After all, you ack ...[text shortened]... w can you assume this get's you off the hook? Support the conclusion, don't simply assert it.
    I'd love to understand exactly what you're going on about here, but I'm having some trouble.

    I don't think that this text (bad decisions can be vindicated by thr excuse that God ordained it) is either an excuse nor is it an assertion. It merely represents a logical progression from;
    1) God creates all souls individually
    2) God is omnipotent, and therefore knows the fate of all of us, including the decision we will make.

    I don't think that (even if God exists) God meddles in the affairs, but by definition of being omnipotent he doesn't have to, he can merely create things the way he wants them.
  11. Standard memberColetti
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    06 Dec '05 22:32
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    I'd love to understand exactly what you're going on about here, but I'm having some trouble.

    I don't think that this text (bad decisions can be vindicated by thr excuse that God ordained it) is either an excuse nor is it an assertion. It merely represents a logical progression from;
    1) God creates all souls individually
    2) God is omnipotent, ...[text shortened]... tion of being omnipotent he doesn't have to, he can merely create things the way he wants them.
    In order to show a logical progression, the terms of the conclusion need to be present in the premises. You need to justify the implication: God ordained it -> it is vindicated. The only connection you have is "it". You'll need some more premises to make to implication stick. Otherwise, it's merely an assertion without support.
  12. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    06 Dec '05 22:37
    Originally posted by Coletti
    In order to show a logical progression, the terms of the conclusion need to be present in the premises. You need to justify the implication: God ordained it -> it is vindicated. The only connection you have is "it". You'll need some more premises to make to implication stick. Otherwise, it's merely an assertion without support.
    So what you're saying is that despite God creating the situation and creating the people in that situation, and knowing what those people would do when he created them, that they have any choice in the matter. In which case it would be a nasty nasty God to not forgive someone for a choice they didn;t have.
  13. Standard memberknightmeister
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    21 Apr '06 11:38
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    Hi,

    The line of thinking behind this thread is relatively simple. There is an apparent paradox in Christianity. God is stated to be both omnipotent and omnipresent, meaning he knows not only what you will do, but he'll also be there when you do it. Now, Christians believe that the soul, if you will, is created uniquely by God. Sooooo, God create ...[text shortened]... who creates people to fry, or self determination by a diety who's not such a know it all.
    Can I link in this argument with the discussion we had on time (eternity- a clarification) . The simple way round this apparent dilemma is to remember that God is not trapped in time like we are. Therefore , he does not 'foresee' or pre-determine what we will do , in a real sense he does not know what we are going to do until we do it and we are free to do what we like. However , because he is not travelling along the time line like us, what we do today and tomorrow has no distinction for him , it's all 'now' to him. So in short the only reason he knows what we will do tomorrow is because he is already in tomorrow watching us do it but not because our actions are predetermined. God doesn't know what we will do in the 'future' because past , present and future have no meaning for him. He's not looking along a progressive timeline like us. If I could travel in time and see what you chose to do tomorrow you would still be free to do what you liked . In effect you could have hundreds of different 'timelines' which you could 'go down' and whichever one you chose that would be the one I would see you in via my time machine.
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    21 Apr '06 12:06
    Originally posted by blindfaith101
    All of mankind has been created with free will/choice.
    This is simply not true.
  15. Standard memberKellyJay
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    21 Apr '06 14:15
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    This is simply not true.
    You know this how?
    Kelly
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