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Originally posted by Grampy Bobbyso many mistakes its hard to know where to start.
[b]Originally posted by stellspalfie
"1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today." (OP)
"in what way is our planet complex? statistically its not even rare." (stellspalfie)
"Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. ...[text shortened]... the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter." (Marilyn Adamson)
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI haven't read all of what you wrote but from what I read you appear to be saying that our planet is very special because it's capable of sustaining us.
[b]Originally posted by stellspalfie
"1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today." (OP)
"in what way is our planet complex? statistically its not even rare." (stellspalfie)
"Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. ...[text shortened]... the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter." (Marilyn Adamson)
But so what? Are we that special? Do we play such an important role in the universe? No, we aren't and no, we don't.
It's very likely that eventually the human race will disappear. It could be that our planet will be hit by a giant asteroid which will wipe out the entire human race.
And you know what? The universe doesn't care one bit. Life forms currently existing on other planets will continue to exist and evolve and be wiped out as if nothing happened. Depending on what happens to earth, many life forms such as bacteria and virusses here may continue to exist, not aware of our disappearance.
One trait that many theists seem to share is arrogance. The arrogance of putting the race to which they belong on a pedestal. To think that a creator must surely exist, because after all, we - humans - exist and we are oh so special.
We're not. We're a blink of the eye in the history of the universe.
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyWhen you say 'perfect' what do you mean? If it was different by say 10% would that still be 'perfect'?
The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter. Ear ...[text shortened]... ipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.
The reason why Earth is the only known planet with its particular mixture of gasses is because we only know the atmospheres of 6 planets and a number of moons. It is hardly surprising that they are all different given that there is such a wide range of possible atmospheres. It is also hardly surprising that the Earths atmosphere is suitable for the life forms on earth - life forms evolve to suit whatever environment they are in otherwise they die off. If the atmosphere was different, the life forms would be different.
However, there are billions of billions of planets in the universe so it is highly likely that our atmosphere is far from unique. The only unlikely part is the high oxygen levels but those are a product of life, so other planets with life may also have the same characteristic. (oxygen is unlikely because it is quite reactive and disappears over time if nothing is producing it).
The fine tuning of the constants that permit higher life to exist certainly argue for a purposing Intelligence behind creation.
Yet the evidence is not coercive or imposing so as that anyone feels forced against his or her will to have to accept it.
This side door always impresses me. I believe God has left ample evidence for God's existence. But God has also seemed to tune into man's own freedom of will a way out of accepting Him if people would really rather choose a way out.
There is enough evidence to indicate God exists. And there is also just enough leeway to interpret the situation in some other way.
"But if you really don't want Me, here's a little side door for you to slip out, if that's what you want."
Praise Him!
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Originally posted by sonshipthe side door is so big nearly everybody that has ever existed has gone through it.
The fine tuning of the constants that permit higher life to exist certainly argue for a purposing Intelligence behind creation.
Yet the evidence is not coercive or imposing so as that anyone feels forced against his or her will to have to accept it.
This side door always impresses me. I believe God has left ample evidence for God's existence. But ...[text shortened]... nt Me, here's a little side door for you to slip out, if that's what you want."
Praise Him!
Originally posted by sonshipI am not really sure what you are trying to say. Are you saying that there is evidence with multiple possible perfectly reasonable explanations of which the existence of God is only one of them? If there are reasonable explanations other than the existence of God, that don't invoke other supernatural elements, surely they are the more reasonable explanation? You don't invoke God for most events that have reasonable naturalistic explanations do you? For example, the sun rises every day. This could be taken as evidence that God puts it in the sky every day for our pleasure. Or there could be just enough leeway to interpret the situation some other way. Why do you take advantage of the leeway with regards to the sun, but not with regards to the things you mentioned? Is it because you don't actually understand the concepts you presented as evidence and thus think others will not understand them either and hence you can fib your way through?
Yet the evidence is not coercive or imposing so as that anyone feels forced against his or her will to have to accept it.
There is enough evidence to indicate God exists. And there is also just enough leeway to interpret the situation in some other way.
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby2. Does God exist? The universe had a start - what caused it?
Originally posted by stellspalfie
"1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today." (OP)
"in what way is our planet complex? statistically its not even rare." (stellspalfie)
"Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But ...[text shortened]... the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter." (Marilyn Adamson)
"Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous explosion of energy and light, which we now call the Big Bang. This was the singular start to everything that exists: the beginning of the universe, the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself.
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, "The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen."
Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in Physics, said at the moment of this explosion, "the universe was about a hundred thousands million degrees Centigrade...and the universe was filled with light."
The universe has not always existed. It had a start...what caused that? Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter." (Marilyn Adamson)
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbySo you are ignorant of the history of the universe. How does that point to God existing?
2. Does God exist? The universe had a start - what caused it?
Do you know how molecular bonding works? If not, then does that mean God exists?
Why would ignorance of something imply God exists?
edit: I must add that your quotes contradict each other somewhat - and the first one if true actually invalidates the question.
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Originally posted by Grampy Bobby"Does God exist?
"2. Does God exist? The universe had a start - what caused it?
"Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous explosion of energy and light, which we now call the Big Bang. This was the singular start to everything that exists: the beginning of the universe, the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself.
As ...[text shortened]... hat? Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter." (Marilyn Adamson)
Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists. But first consider this. When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God. On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you." Before you look at the facts surrounding God's existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him?
3. Does God exist? The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?
Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.
How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?
"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."
Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle." (Marilyn Adamson)
Originally posted by stellspalfie"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." -- Matthew 7:13-14, KJV
the side door is so big nearly everybody that has ever existed has gone through it.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyEvolution and atheists can not partially explain the initial source of the eye or the brain either. Only an intelligent being could fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain and there is obviously no such intelligent atheist being that is known on this earth.
[b]Originally posted by stellspalfie
"1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today." (OP)
"in what way is our planet complex? statistically its not even rare." (stellspalfie)
"Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. ...[text shortened]... the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter." (Marilyn Adamson)
The Moron
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Originally posted by stellspalfie
the side door is so big nearly everybody that has ever existed has gone through it.
the side door is so big nearly everybody that has ever existed has gone through it.
Do you have hard statistics as evidence on that ?
Besides, you'd probably be the first to cry foul if theists resorted to an ad populum fallacy.
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Originally posted by sonshipyou want hard statistics that historically there are more non christians than christians????? are you serious???the side door is so big nearly everybody that has ever existed has gone through it.
Do you have hard statistics as evidence on that ?
Besides, you'd probably be the first to cry fowl if theists resorted to an ad populum fallacy.
my point is not that the quantity of non christians proves christianity is wrong. it was a response to your point that god has left a little door for those who want out. implying that most people dont want out, when the opposite is true, most people are not christians, so from your little scenario it means most people have passed through this little door.
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Originally posted by Suziannematthew needs to stop taking drugs and talking nonsense.
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." -- Matthew 7:13-14, KJV