Originally posted by ZahlanziThen he doesn't really know what you will do next, only all the possible things you may do next.
i suggest that a god that knows the future(omniscient) could still allow for free will if he knows ALL the possible futures. at any point he knows exactly what you are going to do next because anything you could possibly do will happen, albeit in different, parallel universes.
Originally posted by twhiteheadNot true. He could know on T=0 what will happen on T=2 if he does or doesn't intervene on T=1. He knows the possibilities that arise from the choices he makes.
But then he doesn't know the future does he? He only knows possible futures. He does not know whether or not he will intervene, because if he did, it would put us back to square one (and invalidate the 'possible futures' anyway).
However, if he indeed knows on T=0 what will definitely happen on T=2 (because of the choice he makes on T=1), then this would mean he has no free will (I think) or choice. He could still intervene, but it isn't a choice. Because of that there aren't any other possible futures which means that when god knows the future there can only be one possible future.
You agree?
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Originally posted by twhiteheadWhy would you believe or place your confidence in [as you would in the heart or brain surgeon you finally selected]
By whose definition?
And presumably only by your judgement of what is 'worthy of belief'. Its an odd phrase in the first place. Do you believe because you like the concept, or because there is good reason to think it is true?
a person who couldn't deliver [in context, possess omniscience and omnipotence as attributes] to meet your need?
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI misunderstood in what sense you were using the word 'belief'. So you would not place your confidence in a god that is not omniscient (because what you want requires omniscience) but this has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not such a god exists. Is this correct?
Why would you believe or place your confidence in [as you would in the heart or brain surgeon you finally selected]
a person who couldn't deliver [in context, possess omniscience and omnipotence as attributes] to meet your need?
You seem like a really needy person.
Originally posted by twhiteheaddepends how you look at the issue. all your "other" selves may be regarded as a branching tree starting at the moment of your birth, therefore as a single entity. god may know what you are going to do next because the "you" is the entirety of possible branches. basically it's the same thing you said, looking from a different angle and redefining "you"
Then he doesn't really know what you will do next, only all the possible things you may do next.
Originally posted by twhiteheadIf he knows it perfectly, then there is only one future ie some sort of determinism is at play.
If he knows it perfectly, then there is only one future ie some sort of determinism is at play.
If he only knows general trends, then some sort of partial determinism is the case.
Much of the Old Testament suggests that God did not know the future.
From a moral perspective one should question the morality of a God that creates beings that he knows wi ...[text shortened]... t/make decisions etc. Once the future exists and you know it you are essentially a static being.
If he only knows general trends, then some sort of partial determinism is the case.
Given the strictest sense of determinism, one could argue how free will is one of those conditions and not lose the punch.
Much of the Old Testament suggests that God did not know the future.
There are plenty of passages written with the mechanism of anthropomorphism for the benefit of the audience which appear to suggest God's human-like limitations.
However, taken as a whole, the Bible speaks of One who knows the end from the beginning... and each and every nuance in between.
From a moral perspective one should question the morality of a God that creates beings that he knows will end up in hell.
Every person who draws a breath during the course of human history has their name written in the Book of Lives.
Only they (through their free will) are able to remove their names from the same.
From a logical perspective one questions the possibility of a God that knows the future yet is able to act/make decisions etc. Once the future exists and you know it you are essentially a static being.
If, by "static being" you mean:
1. pertaining to or characterized by a fixed or stationary condition.
2. showing little or no change
then I think you're right.
Originally posted by ZahlanziExcept that the concept 'what you do next' looses all meaning as you will in fact do every possible thing next, just in different universes. It also begs the question as to what God might do with such information as every possible future will be realised anyway, him knowing every possible future would be of little value to him. He also cannot do things like prophesy where he tells you what the future will be because for all but one possible future he would be wrong anyway.
depends how you look at the issue. all your "other" selves may be regarded as a branching tree starting at the moment of your birth, therefore as a single entity. god may know what you are going to do next because the "you" is the entirety of possible branches. basically it's the same thing you said, looking from a different angle and redefining "you"
Originally posted by FreakyKBHDifferent people have different understandings of what 'free will' means. In what sense do you mean it?
Given the strictest sense of determinism, one could argue how free will is one of those conditions and not lose the punch.
There are plenty of passages written with the mechanism of anthropomorphism for the benefit of the audience which appear to suggest God's human-like limitations.
However, taken as a whole, the Bible speaks of One who knows the end from the beginning... and each and every nuance in between.
Things like the tower of Babel and the Flood stories seem to suggest otherwise.
Of course I think reading the Bible 'as a whole' is complete folly given that it is a collection of very different books.
Every person who draws a breath during the course of human history has their name written in the Book of Lives.
What happens if I change my name?
Only they (through their free will) are able to remove their names from the same.
So the book may change over time. Does God know which names will be removed before they are removed? Could he do anything about it?
You are not really addressing the fundamental issues with regards to knowing the future and its implications.
If, by "static being" you mean:
1. pertaining to or characterized by a fixed or stationary condition.
2. showing little or no change
then I think you're right.
I mean 1. God cannot 'think' 'act' etc in the sense that we think of them. He cannot take knowledge of the future and act on it as doing so would change the future. His knowledge of the future is of no use to him.
Originally posted by twhiteheadDifferent people have different understandings of what 'free will' means. In what sense do you mean it?
Different people have different understandings of what 'free will' means. In what sense do you mean it?
[b]There are plenty of passages written with the mechanism of anthropomorphism for the benefit of the audience which appear to suggest God's human-like limitations.
However, taken as a whole, the Bible speaks of One who knows the end from the beginn ...[text shortened]... act on it as doing so would change the future. His knowledge of the future is of no use to him.
By example, that concept that you freely chose to type into your keyboard the words that you did, in response to the words you read of mine, which were, themselves, the result of my decision to type them into my keyboard prior to your reading of the same.
Of course I think reading the Bible 'as a whole' is complete folly given that it is a collection of very different books.
That's kinda the meaning of the word, if my math checks out.
What happens if I change my name?
That's where I gave you a thumb's up.
Funny, but God knows your true name, sir.
Could he do anything about it?
Anything that could be done, has been done.
He cannot take knowledge of the future and act on it as doing so would change the future. His knowledge of the future is of no use to him.
He already did.
Look to the Cross.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHNot clear enough. So are my decisions totally deterministic based on prior information I have gathered, or is there an element of randomness in your concept of free will?
By example, that concept that you freely chose to type into your keyboard the words that you did, in response to the words you read of mine, which were, themselves, the result of my decision to type them into my keyboard prior to your reading of the same.
That's kinda the meaning of the word, if my math checks out.
Yes, I know. And if we added the three books of "The Lord of the Rings" to the collection would you still talk about 'read as a whole' and dismiss things in the New Testament because they no longer fit with the whole?
That's where I gave you a thumb's up.
Funny, but God knows your true name, sir.
So I have a true name? When is it assigned to me? Do identical twins have the same name, or two seperate names?
Anything that could be done, has been done.
So God is no longer capable of action?
He already did.
Look to the Cross.
So he saw the future, acted on it, changed it, and changed the future he saw? So it wasn't the future he saw in the first place.
Do you think he can change the past too?
Originally posted by caissad4I think your understanding of 'making a choice' is necessarily an illusion. Partly because of the fact that if I asked you to describe what you mean you would fail because you haven't thought it through.
We are all just rats in a maze. We operate under the illusion of making choices but the outcome is preordained.😀