1. Joined
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    17 Jun '07 04:59
    Just kidding so get your minds out of the gutter. No this post is about proving God. Since one cannot prove God, one must choose between either accepting him by faith or rejecting him. Simply put, either God demands faith, as the Bible states, or he does not exist. The question then becomes, if God exists, which I am all sure you will agree with me that he does exist, why does he demand faith instead of proving himself? Speculations?
  2. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    17 Jun '07 05:311 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    Since one cannot prove God, one must choose between either accepting him by faith or rejecting him.
    Terrible epistemology. Just terrible.
  3. Melbourne, Australia
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    17 Jun '07 06:01
    Originally posted by whodey
    Just kidding so get your minds out of the gutter. No this post is about proving God. Since one cannot prove God, one must choose between either accepting him by faith or rejecting him. Simply put, either God demands faith, as the Bible states, or he does not exist. The question then becomes, if God exists, which I am all sure you will agree with me that he does exist, why does he demand faith instead of proving himself? Speculations?
    If it doesn't exist then this would explain all that is lacking, wouldn't it?
  4. Joined
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    17 Jun '07 11:55
    Originally posted by whodey
    Just kidding so get your minds out of the gutter. No this post is about proving God. Since one cannot prove God, one must choose between either accepting him by faith or rejecting him. Simply put, either God demands faith, as the Bible states, or he does not exist. The question then becomes, if God exists, which I am all sure you will agree with me that he does exist, why does he demand faith instead of proving himself? Speculations?
    Your making the assuption that god exists. How can I reject him if he doesn't exist?
  5. Joined
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    17 Jun '07 13:42
    Originally posted by Jake Ellison
    Your making the assuption that god exists. How can I reject him if he doesn't exist?
    I am not forcing you to accept that he exists. The premise is that IF he does exist, why then does he require faith? After all, IF he does exist, he MUST require faith, no?
  6. Joined
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    17 Jun '07 15:061 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    I am not forcing you to accept that he exists. The premise is that IF he does exist, why then does he require faith? After all, IF he does exist, he MUST require faith, no?
    Right, but I'm still not rejecting him. I can't reject something that doesn't exist. I can reject belief in him.
  7. Joined
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    17 Jun '07 15:30
    Originally posted by Jake Ellison
    Right, but I'm still not rejecting him. I can't reject something that doesn't exist. I can reject belief in him.
    Ok then, have it your way. So how about it? If there be a God, why does he require faith?
  8. Joined
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    17 Jun '07 16:32
    Originally posted by whodey
    Ok then, have it your way. So how about it? If there be a God, why does he require faith?
    Because there is absolutely no evidence for him or reason why you should. Therefore you must have faith. You don't have anything else.
  9. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    17 Jun '07 20:22
    Originally posted by whodey
    Just kidding so get your minds out of the gutter. No this post is about proving God. Since one cannot prove God, one must choose between either accepting him by faith or rejecting him. Simply put, either God demands faith, as the Bible states, or he does not exist. The question then becomes, if God exists, which I am all sure you will agree with me that he does exist, why does he demand faith instead of proving himself? Speculations?
    If there IS a god, he DOESN'T require faith, he just exists.

    Therefore, you should quit with the believing.
  10. Joined
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    17 Jun '07 21:231 edit
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    If there IS a god, he DOESN'T require faith, he just exists.

    Therefore, you should quit with the believing.
    This is perhaps a scenerio I did not take into account. What if there is a God but such a God has no interest in interacting with his creation. So to sum up the possibilities are God does not exist, God exists but requires faith in order to interact with him, or God exists but has no interest in interacting with his creation thus no faith is required.

    For me, however, scenerio 1 and 3 are equal in terms of effect. If God has no interest in interacting with his creation then he is as good as dead in terms of how we relate to him.

    However, the question still remains. Assuming scenerio 2 is the right answer and there is a God who wishes to interact with his creation, why is it he requires faith to do so? Why does he require us to reach out to him without proving himself to us beforehand? i was hoping for those who believed in God to participate to a greater degree than they have thus far.
  11. Joined
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    17 Jun '07 21:27
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Terrible epistemology. Just terrible.
    Thanks! Admit it, you took points off my sermon score after reading this post did'nt you?
  12. Joined
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    17 Jun '07 23:022 edits
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    Ok, Ok, I will explain my blathering. For those of faith, one must conceede that the God they believe in REQUIRES faith. After all, we cannot see him, he does not "appear" to interact with the material world in which we live. Therefore, assuming what we still believe is true, the question is why does he require faith? Here is an example in scripture.

    Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him; for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that is is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

    Here are just a few thoughts.
    1. Faith has nothing to do with the knowing the facts other than not knowing all of the facts. In other words, Adam and Eve lost faith in their God even though they knew he existed. The question then becomes why? I think it comes down to not knowing ALL of the facts. The simple truth of the matter is that only God is all knowing because God is above his creation in terms of knowledge and intellect. Therefore God's creation is and will continue to be dependent upon him from time to time for all of eternity regarding things we may not know or understand. In effect, God sees where we may have "blind spots". Considering this, we then see that a relationship with the Almighty MUST include faith. It makes no difference whether we place our faith in him that he exists or place our faith in him not to eat of the forbidden fruit. Thus, proving himself to his creation does little in fostering such faith. In fact, I think it actually helps seperate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. Those who come to him in faith without proving that God exists are more likely to continue to walk in faith regarding other things that require faith. Otherwise everyone would claim to be his follower due to the fact they would feel compelled to serve whom they knew for certain was the one true God. I think this would give rise to further hypocrisy and such than we already have regarding those who claim to serve God in faith.

    2. This leads me to my second reason. If God "proved" he existed, we would feel compelled to be in good favor with him. However, would our hearts be in such an endevour? Would our service be soley out of fear or dread or out of love? As I have said before, God desires free will because he is a God of love. He must because we have free will and love demands free will to love someone back. However, if God "proved" he existed, would we not feel coersed into serving him? I mean, if you don't guess what is going to happen to you. Just read Revelations to find out. Therefore, an easy out in not feeling coersed is simply to say that he does not exist. If you truly do not love the ways of God then your heart will not desire to serve him. God does not want such service. He only desires those who desires him. In effect, there is no gun to your head to serve him. That is, there is no visible gun to your head. Free will continues unempeeded without coersion. It then becomes the "invisible gun" to the head, so to speak.

    Having said all of that, it then stands to reason that in the eyes of God faith in him is equivalent to righteousness. This is mentioned in the Bible many times in reference to Abraham. God cares little in terms of where we have been or what we have done, rather, God only cares where we are willing to go with him and whether or not we will do as he says. Otherwise, if we continue to insist on going our own way in defiance of his perfect will then things will continue to run amuck.
  13. Melbourne, Australia
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    18 Jun '07 06:16
    Originally posted by whodey
    Ok, Ok, I will explain my blathering. For those of faith, one must conceede that the God they believe in REQUIRES faith. After all, we cannot see him, he does not "appear" to interact with the material world in which we live. Therefore, assuming what we still believe is true, the question is why does he require faith? Here is an example in scripture.

    H ...[text shortened]... ur own way in defiance of his perfect will then things will continue to run amuck.
    I don't accept your first premise.
    God doesn't REQUIRE faith. At least, you don't know that it does anyway.
    You're assuming God requires faith. You're attributing a requirement of faith to God. Okay, you say, God cannot be proven, there is no evidence, therefore it must require faith. The belief in god requires faith, but not the god itself.
  14. Joined
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    19 Jun '07 02:402 edits
    Originally posted by amannion
    I don't accept your first premise.
    God doesn't REQUIRE faith. At least, you don't know that it does anyway.
    You're assuming God requires faith. You're attributing a requirement of faith to God. Okay, you say, God cannot be proven, there is no evidence, therefore it must require faith. The belief in god requires faith, but not the god itself.
    "The belief in God requires faith, but not the God himself."

    Well it is true that God sometimes "proves" himself to mankind. After all, I think he did a fairly good job when parted the Red Sea and brought manna from heaven and raised the dead and healed the sick via Christ. Then again, does such proof do anything at all in terms of mankind placing their faith in him? No. In fact, God continued to be rejected despite the before mentioned "proof". Therefore, why would God bother speding his time being proven today? No, what God is after in response to mankind does not require proof, rather, it requires the desire for his ways. God only wants us to desire him. I think you will find that belief correlates to the condition of our hearts more than cold hard facts. What we love in large measure determained what we place our faith or belief in. Christ more or less said so himself.
  15. Melbourne, Australia
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    19 Jun '07 06:14
    Originally posted by whodey
    "The belief in God requires faith, but not the God himself."

    Well it is true that God sometimes "proves" himself to mankind. After all, I think he did a fairly good job when parted the Red Sea and brought manna from heaven and raised the dead and healed the sick via Christ. Then again, does such proof do anything at all in terms of mankind placing their ...[text shortened]... re determained what we place our faith or belief in. Christ more or less said so himself.
    God only wants us to desire him.

    On what basis do you make that claim? What evidence do you have, other than your faith, that this is, in fact, truly the motivation of this god entity?
    You're attributing desires and motivations to it that model our own human desires and motivations.
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