Dr Who + Columbus + Free will (part 2)
08 Dec '06 19:00the story continues.......
Man “ So do you think God is like that, if he exists? Because God is supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent , and that means he is all knowing and all powerful , whereas the way you have described your position is not all powerful and not all knowing because you don't know what Columbus will do until he does it. I mean , God can't be all powerful and all knowing if free will exists can he ?“
Dr Who “ To me that would depend entirely on how you define the words omniscient and omnipotent. “
Man” There's only one definition ...all knowing and all powerful”
Dr Who “ Ahhh...but there is more than one interpretation my friend. Let me give you an analogy. When I was a kid growing up I was in no doubt that my Dad was the master of the house (with a little help from my mum LOL) . One day we were watching the TV and he really wanted to watch a programme on lorries on the other side. I , however , really wanted to watch the Six Million Dollar man........
Man “ What on earth is a TV?” (At this point in the discussion Dr Who takes the man into 2006 and back again and after nearly having a coronary the man gains an insight into what a TV is)
Dr Who “ Feeling better now...? Anyway , as I was saying , my Dad in the end chose to decide what went on the TV by the flip of a coin. I won! I was gobsmacked! My Dad had chosen to allow something to happen which took things out of his control and he didn't know how it would turn out . I had the power all of a sudden to say to him , no it's alright Dad you watch the lorry thing I'll give Steve Austin a miss (of course being 8 I didn't ). “
Man “What's the point in all this?”
Dr Who “ Well , do you think my Dad was no longer the master of his own house because he did this?”
Man “ Well no I suppose he wasn't technically..but...”
Dr Who “ ..but what?...come on ....do the thinking and remember the bigger picture....”
Man “ Well he was still the master of the house but he also wasn't in that instant ...he was kinda both...”
Dr Who “ Ok good...now .....if I said that the reason why he did this was that because his neighbour had told him he had to , otherwise he would come round and bop him on the nose...would that make a difference?”
Man “ Absolutely ...I would say he wasn't the master of his own house then because he was limited by something else”
Dr Who “ So what if I told you that the reason he did this was because he wanted to create an adult -adult relationship with me and gain my respect and love by a) giving me some power and influence and b) allowing himself to be subject to his own values of fair play? “
Man “ Well that would change things a lot for me because it happened because he chose it and he could have taken that choice back at any time...he was limiting himself for a specific reason ...to me he would still be equally the master of his house as he would have been if he had just grabbed the controller and said it's lorries on TV today....tough!!”
Dr Who “ So can you now see how we need to think very carefully about our definitions of omnipotence (and omniscience)? The definition can change because of the circumstances and motives. We can interpret these words mechanistically and pedantically in terms of outcomes only or we can put a bit of reasoning into it and have a think about motives and whether my Dad (or God) is self limiting or just plain limited. Because if you agree that my Dad was being self limiting in his choice to relinquish his total mastery of his household then it will change your ideas about his mastery.”
Man” So you're saying in this analogy that if God is self limiting in his omnipotence and omniscience for a specific reason then he is still omniscient/omnipotent really and it's just a pedantic technicality to say he isn't”
Dr Who “ Pretty much ...yes... I mean if you translate that to free will you could say technically that God has lost control of his creatures so is not omnipotent any more. But you could also say he hasn't “lost” omnipotence but has” given away” his omnipotence freely to allow something else to happen and could grab it back any time he wants . That in my book would still be omnipotence. A lot depends on whether you want to interpret the word superficially or whether you want to get into the deeper stuff”
Man “ Is it possible then that when Christians say God is omnipotent/ omniscience they are not referring to the technical meaning of the word , but to the spirit and meaning of the word”
Dr Who “ Yes , that's entirely possible...that's why they don't see it as a big problem I think...to them the Atheist objection to free will and omnipotence/ omniscience co-existing sounds a bit pedantic “
Man “ So do you think God is like that, if he exists? Because God is supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent , and that means he is all knowing and all powerful , whereas the way you have described your position is not all powerful and not all knowing because you don't know what Columbus will do until he does it. I mean , God can't be all powerful and all knowing if free will exists can he ?“
Dr Who “ To me that would depend entirely on how you define the words omniscient and omnipotent. “
Man” There's only one definition ...all knowing and all powerful”
Dr Who “ Ahhh...but there is more than one interpretation my friend. Let me give you an analogy. When I was a kid growing up I was in no doubt that my Dad was the master of the house (with a little help from my mum LOL) . One day we were watching the TV and he really wanted to watch a programme on lorries on the other side. I , however , really wanted to watch the Six Million Dollar man........
Man “ What on earth is a TV?” (At this point in the discussion Dr Who takes the man into 2006 and back again and after nearly having a coronary the man gains an insight into what a TV is)
Dr Who “ Feeling better now...? Anyway , as I was saying , my Dad in the end chose to decide what went on the TV by the flip of a coin. I won! I was gobsmacked! My Dad had chosen to allow something to happen which took things out of his control and he didn't know how it would turn out . I had the power all of a sudden to say to him , no it's alright Dad you watch the lorry thing I'll give Steve Austin a miss (of course being 8 I didn't ). “
Man “What's the point in all this?”
Dr Who “ Well , do you think my Dad was no longer the master of his own house because he did this?”
Man “ Well no I suppose he wasn't technically..but...”
Dr Who “ ..but what?...come on ....do the thinking and remember the bigger picture....”
Man “ Well he was still the master of the house but he also wasn't in that instant ...he was kinda both...”
Dr Who “ Ok good...now .....if I said that the reason why he did this was that because his neighbour had told him he had to , otherwise he would come round and bop him on the nose...would that make a difference?”
Man “ Absolutely ...I would say he wasn't the master of his own house then because he was limited by something else”
Dr Who “ So what if I told you that the reason he did this was because he wanted to create an adult -adult relationship with me and gain my respect and love by a) giving me some power and influence and b) allowing himself to be subject to his own values of fair play? “
Man “ Well that would change things a lot for me because it happened because he chose it and he could have taken that choice back at any time...he was limiting himself for a specific reason ...to me he would still be equally the master of his house as he would have been if he had just grabbed the controller and said it's lorries on TV today....tough!!”
Dr Who “ So can you now see how we need to think very carefully about our definitions of omnipotence (and omniscience)? The definition can change because of the circumstances and motives. We can interpret these words mechanistically and pedantically in terms of outcomes only or we can put a bit of reasoning into it and have a think about motives and whether my Dad (or God) is self limiting or just plain limited. Because if you agree that my Dad was being self limiting in his choice to relinquish his total mastery of his household then it will change your ideas about his mastery.”
Man” So you're saying in this analogy that if God is self limiting in his omnipotence and omniscience for a specific reason then he is still omniscient/omnipotent really and it's just a pedantic technicality to say he isn't”
Dr Who “ Pretty much ...yes... I mean if you translate that to free will you could say technically that God has lost control of his creatures so is not omnipotent any more. But you could also say he hasn't “lost” omnipotence but has” given away” his omnipotence freely to allow something else to happen and could grab it back any time he wants . That in my book would still be omnipotence. A lot depends on whether you want to interpret the word superficially or whether you want to get into the deeper stuff”
Man “ Is it possible then that when Christians say God is omnipotent/ omniscience they are not referring to the technical meaning of the word , but to the spirit and meaning of the word”
Dr Who “ Yes , that's entirely possible...that's why they don't see it as a big problem I think...to them the Atheist objection to free will and omnipotence/ omniscience co-existing sounds a bit pedantic “
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