1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    14 Dec '06 21:09
    the saga continues......

    Man “... but this idea of something like God being eternal ...that's impossible! “

    Dr Who (chuckles to himself)” Well ...yes I suppose it is in one sense....(continues chuckling)”

    Man “ Why are you giggling?”

    Dr Who “ Well you sound SO sure...I mean have you really thought it through?”

    Man “ I have thought it through ...something with a beginning (or end for that matter) ..that's impossible!”

    Dr Who” I think I need to introduce you to the Probability of Impossibility theory. “

    Man “ ...eh?”

    Dr Who “ Ok , let's look at some logical explanations for the existence of life and everything. Explanation 1 – I might say that everything has to have a cause or a reason to exist . This means that whatever caused the universe to exist must also have a reason or cause to exist”

    Man “ ....so what?....”

    Dr Who “ Well if you follow this logic then very soon you find yourself having to keep finding a cause for whatever cause you think you have found ...as soon as you find a cause you have to find another cause..or at least believe in a cause...”

    Man “ ...I've heard of this...it's like you end up with a never ending series of dominoes in a line but you have to keep adding one on the end because no domino can fall with out there being one behind it...and you can't have a beginning domino because it needs to have a reason or cause to be there...”

    Dr Who “ It 's called infinite regress ..but to me it sounds very very similar to eternity... Now for Explanation 2 – This one is a bit similar but says that there is one eternal domino that does not have a cause or reason to be there because it's always been there. This domino doesn't need a cause because it is eternal and has no beginning . No one put the domino there because there never was a time when it wasn't there. What's more it can fall over all by itself. This is called the Uncaused Cause...but you would know it in your local church as being called God”

    Man ” ...yes I've heard of him....(chuckles)”

    Dr Who “ I thought you might have done....So where were we? Ah yes... Explanation 3 - This explanation says that life just came out of nothing for no reason at all .”

    Man “ ..but isn't that like God ?”

    Dr Who “ No because number 3 is like saying that there was a “time” (if one could call it that) when there were no dominos at all and then the domino(universe) appeared and fell over and started the whole show , whereas in number 2 there was always a domino there , the domino (or God) didn't appear because there never was time when there was nothing”

    Man” I see....fancy a game of dominoes?

    Dr Who “ (LOL) It would be a long game eh?.......on to Explanation number 4..”

    Man” There's another one ?....”

    Dr Who “ Well sort of ...it's really a variation on number 2 but instead of there being an eternal domino that creates the universe ,the universe itself is eternal. This idea means that the universe has always been pulsing or exploding/imploding forever and ever without beginning for eternity”

    Man” So what does all this prove? And why did you laugh at me?”

    Dr Who” Well don't you see ? Whichever explanation you think of it all sounds very bizarre and impossible. Either you have an eternal domino or a domino appearing out of nothing for no reason at all , or an eternal universe or an infinite line of dominoes stretching back into eternity”

    Man” My head's spinning.....”

    Dr Who “ ...and so it should...you see it's ALL impossible...when you think about it logic as we know it starts to fold in on itself if you take it things to the ultimate conclusion...it doesn't make sense using out normal logic.....so when you say 'eternity is impossible' I laugh because I wonder if you actually think there might be a logical explanation in it's place!!.I wonder what you mean by the word 'impossible'. You see it's quite probable that whatever the explanation is it's going to sound impossible anyway and we will never fully understand it even if we had ten trillion eons and a billion supercomputers. This is what I call the Probability of Impossibility because there is little point in complaining that things like eternity sound “impossible” if you are resigned to this fate anyway”

    Man” ..so this is what is known as mysticism down at my church “

    Dr Who “ Precisely...it's the realisation of the Probability of Impossibility and Atheists hate it because they see it as a kop out .”

    Man” ...Why?”

    Dr Who “ ...I guess they are still hanging on to the idea that somehow if we knew everything there was to know then we would be able to rationally understand it in our minds....but if you think it through logically ...it's not very likely ...the logic just crashes in on itself...however they accuse theists of being 'irrational' without embracing the Probability of Impossibility “

    Man “ So that's why they see this idea of God knowing what Columbus' will do but him also being free impossible....it's because they think eternity is impossible...”

    Dr Who “ ....and it IS if you think only inside the box of time...but I think eternity is quite likely ...certainly more likely than a magical universe appearing out of sweet FA for no reason..”
  2. Subscriberno1marauder
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    14 Dec '06 21:14
    Strawman argument. And a retarded one.
  3. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    14 Dec '06 22:392 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Strawman argument. And a retarded one.
    No explanation , no reasoning , no debate?... and you call my argument retarded?

    The weakness of your atheism is your desire to crush the opposition dogmatically , it's as if you need to do this to try and silence any argument . It' s like religious fundamentalism in reverse.

    I would be happy to debate things with you but anytime I come up with anything you don't understand you start the whole "magic" insult thing and then get dogmatic . You need to stop projecting your bad experiences with Christians on to me . If you look at my past posts you will see that I very often try and give reasoned ideas and logical arguments to back up what I am saying. You may disagree with them and you may dispute my logic but I do not resort to scripture as a defence and I do try and wrestle with the issue at hand (however clumsy that might be) . Your dogmatic insults are not really insults at the end of the day , they are just plain inaccurate.

    I am questioning your logic and you are questioning mine , throwing you hands in the air and shouting "magic" removes you from the crucible of debate . So come back in , it's a messy business , get used to it.
  4. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    14 Dec '06 22:42
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    the saga continues......

    Man “... but this idea of something like God being eternal ...that's impossible! “

    Dr Who (chuckles to himself)” Well ...yes I suppose it is in one sense....(continues chuckling)”

    Man “ Why are you giggling?”

    Dr Who “ Well you sound SO sure...I mean have you really thought it through?”

    Man “ I have thought it th ...[text shortened]... a magical universe appearing out of sweet FA for no reason..”
    Man “ I have thought it through ...something with a beginning (or end for that matter) ..that's impossible!”



    ##edit something with NO beginning!!!🙄
  5. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    14 Dec '06 22:53
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Man “ I have thought it through ...something with a beginning (or end for that matter) ..that's impossible!”



    ##edit something with NO beginning!!!🙄
    The universe is the only thing for which an un-caused beginning can be postulated, since cause and effect only exist within the universe.
  6. Standard membershavixmir
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    14 Dec '06 23:07
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    the saga continues......

    Man “... but this idea of something like God being eternal ...that's impossible! “

    Dr Who (chuckles to himself)” Well ...yes I suppose it is in one sense....(continues chuckling)”

    Man “ Why are you giggling?”

    Dr Who “ Well you sound SO sure...I mean have you really thought it through?”

    Man “ I have thought it th ...[text shortened]... a magical universe appearing out of sweet FA for no reason..”
    Not quite hogwash.

    I'm an atheist, but I don't believe there ever was a beginning. There can't have been.
    "Oh prove it!"
    Okay...what's the lowest number you know? 0? -1? -40000000000?
    See...there's no start to numbers, therefor there doesn't need to be a start to everything.

    Now, this no-start, if you will, can be called God, but it doesn't have intelligence and it doesn't have a willpower, it just is. Like a number.

    Anyways, I've never read a Dr. Who book with a dialogue like that without some Dalek or Cyberman screaming: "EXTERMINATE." inbetween!
  7. Joined
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    15 Dec '06 03:18
    Been following this interesting adventure of Dr. Who. Can't wait for part 4! But is he ever gonna meet up with Columbus? Another curious thing I can't help wondering; this man in the bar he has been talking to, he speaks perfect English for a Portuguese! I wonder if there's an explanation for that as the story unfolds? Well, I'm looking forward to the continuation.... pray proceed!
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    15 Dec '06 03:37
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Not quite hogwash.

    I'm an atheist, but I don't believe there ever was a beginning. There can't have been.
    "Oh prove it!"
    Okay...what's the lowest number you know? 0? -1? -40000000000?
    See...there's no start to numbers, therefor there doesn't need to be a start to everything.

    Now, this no-start, if you will, can be called God, but it doesn't h ...[text shortened]... logue like that without some Dalek or Cyberman screaming: "EXTERMINATE." inbetween!
    In math numbers has a limit.


    -Inf is the limit.
  9. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    15 Dec '06 04:52
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    In math numbers has a limit.


    -Inf is the limit.
    But that's not a limit. Infinity is only a way of saying "an absolutely huge number beyond comprehension. Of course, you may have a numerical value for infinity and prove me wrong.
  10. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    15 Dec '06 18:52
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Not quite hogwash.

    I'm an atheist, but I don't believe there ever was a beginning. There can't have been.
    "Oh prove it!"
    Okay...what's the lowest number you know? 0? -1? -40000000000?
    See...there's no start to numbers, therefor there doesn't need to be a start to everything.

    Now, this no-start, if you will, can be called God, but it doesn't h ...[text shortened]... logue like that without some Dalek or Cyberman screaming: "EXTERMINATE." inbetween!
    I have a lot of respect for your position on this . You have understood the point I am making . As an Atheist (I presume) you don't have to believe in God to believe that one of my 4 explanations is quite likely . In doing so you would probably agree with me that whatever is out there is probably impossible (or illogical) . Maybe you understand why Christians chuckle when Atheists say "but that's impossible!".

    This is a refreshing response and a welcome break from the normal dogmatic dirge about how everything is supposed to make "perfect sense" ...as if they have a more reasonable explanation.
  11. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    15 Dec '06 19:01
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    The universe is the only thing for which an un-caused beginning can be postulated, since cause and effect only exist within the universe.
    And how do you know that cause and effect only exist within the universe?

    However , I do agree that cause and effect are likely to be rules which do not necessarily apply outside of the universe. Maybe they don't apply at all But if this is true then does that not prove my point. The laws of normal logic and causality break down outside the universe , even time itself may breakdown. Reason and logic itself starts to eat it's own tail!

    So do you not see why Dr Who chuckles when the man says "eternity but that's impossible!"

    The answer is "of course it's impossible , whatever gave you the impression it wouldn't be!!!!" 🙄🙄🙄😲🙄😲😵
  12. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    15 Dec '06 19:05
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    But that's not a limit. Infinity is only a way of saying "an absolutely huge number beyond comprehension. Of course, you may have a numerical value for infinity and prove me wrong.
    infinity is NOT a huge number that is so huge that it is beyond our comprehension , it is not a number at all , it is the concept that whatever "huge" number you can come up with you can always add 1 to it ...add infinitum....it doesn't stop ....EVER ....that's what makes it incomprehensible NOT it's hugeness.

    Come on scottishnz , I thought you knew that!!!
  13. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    19 Dec '06 20:42
    Originally posted by ckoh1965
    Been following this interesting adventure of Dr. Who. Can't wait for part 4! But is he ever gonna meet up with Columbus? Another curious thing I can't help wondering; this man in the bar he has been talking to, he speaks perfect English for a Portuguese! I wonder if there's an explanation for that as the story unfolds? Well, I'm looking forward to the continuation.... pray proceed!
    ...part 4 is here!....if you would like an advanced copy of part 5 then it's £19.95...paypal accepted....
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