1. Joined
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    13 Aug '10 03:05
    http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/separate/newevan.htm

    This link was given to me by a "like minded" Christian on this site. If you care to read it you may gain some insight as to why some Christians today are unable to "contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 1:3
  2. Territories Unknown
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    13 Aug '10 03:12
    Originally posted by josephw
    http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/separate/newevan.htm

    This link was given to me by a "like minded" Christian on this site. If you care to read it you may gain some insight as to why some Christians today are unable to [b]"contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."
    Jude 1:3[/b]
    It all comes down to foundations, rock or sand.
  3. Joined
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    13 Aug '10 03:16
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    It all comes down to foundations, rock or sand.
    2 Timothy 4:3 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    Titus 1:9 - Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

    Titus 2:1 - But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

    😉
  4. Territories Unknown
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    13 Aug '10 03:17
    Originally posted by josephw
    2 Timothy 4:3 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    Titus 1:9 - Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

    Titus 2:1 - But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

    😉
    True, that.
  5. Standard memberChessPraxis
    Cowboy From Hell
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    13 Aug '10 03:301 edit
    The old Evangelicals, held true to God's word, and applied it to every aspect of life.
    These people are not true Evangelicals.
  6. Joined
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    13 Aug '10 03:35
    Originally posted by ChessPraxis
    The old Evangelicals, held true to God's word, and applied it to every aspect of life.
    These people are not true Evangelicals.
    We're still around! 😉

    1 Timothy 6:12 - Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
  7. England
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    13 Aug '10 10:06
    Originally posted by josephw
    "contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 1:3[/b]
    jude 1:3 DEAR FRIENDS, although i was eager to write to you about the salvation we share, i felt i had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.
  8. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
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    13 Aug '10 10:16
    Originally posted by josephw
    2 Timothy 4:3 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    Titus 1:9 - Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

    Titus 2:1 - But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

    😉
    Does it bother you to know that the three passages you quote here all come from the so called "pastoral" epistles? It is generally agreed by most biblical scholars that 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus were not written by Paul. They are forgeries written in his name.
  9. Joined
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    13 Aug '10 12:23
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Does it bother you to know that the three passages you quote here all come from the so called "pastoral" epistles? It is generally agreed by most biblical scholars that 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus were not written by Paul. They are forgeries written in his name.
    Believe what you want.
  10. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    13 Aug '10 12:42
    Originally posted by josephw
    Believe what you want.
    This isn't just my personal belief. It is the belief of the majority of biblical scholars. Why is it that the Christians who doggedly cling to the belief in scriptural infallibility are the ones who know the least about the bible? Talk about dumbed down Christians.
  11. Hy-Brasil
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    13 Aug '10 14:20
    Originally posted by rwingett
    This isn't just my personal belief. It is the belief of the majority of biblical scholars. Why is it that the Christians who doggedly cling to the belief in scriptural infallibility are the ones who know the least about the bible? Talk about dumbed down Christians.
    This statement is false.

    "It is the belief of the majority of biblical scholars." -rwingett

    Name just a few of these biblical scholars who make up this majority.
  12. Cape Town
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    13 Aug '10 14:24
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Why is it that the Christians who doggedly cling to the belief in scriptural infallibility are the ones who know the least about the bible?
    Because once you know just the basics about the Bible you realize that a claim to scriptural infallibility is illogical. But don't be fooled, they are often willfully ignorant not just unlearned. Every time I have tried to discuss the matter, the thread goes silent - similar to any discussion of the soul.
  13. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    14 Aug '10 12:341 edit
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    [b]This statement is false.

    "It is the belief of the majority of biblical scholars." -rwingett

    Name just a few of these biblical scholars who make up this majority.[/b]
    Of Paul's thirteen epistles, there is broad agreement that seven were indisputably written by Paul (Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, and Philemon). Ephesians, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians are known as the 'Deutero-Pauline Epistles'. There is much disagreement as to whether they were actually written by Paul. 1 & 2 Timothy, and Titus are known as the 'Pastoral Epistles.' There is broad agreement that they were not written by Paul, but were written by someone else and merely attributed to Paul.

    It seems that it is the Christians themselves who are least aware of these things. You can read about the authorship of the Pauline epistles on Wikipedia, for example. It is non-controversial stuff. Two of the scholars that I am aware of who have written about this are Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan. Their book, The First Paul, makes that case that the theology of the Deutero-Pauline Epistles, and especially of the Pastoral Epistles, is very different from that of the undisputed epistles. If you read the undisputed epistles by themselves, you come away with a very different picture of Paul than you do if you include the disputed and non-Pauline epistles.

    Edit: I thought it was significant that all three passages quoted by Josephw in his second post came from the Pastoral Epistles.
  14. Hy-Brasil
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    14 Aug '10 13:52
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Of Paul's thirteen epistles, there is broad agreement that seven were indisputably written by Paul (Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, and Philemon). Ephesians, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians are known as the 'Deutero-Pauline Epistles'. There is much disagreement as to whether they were actually written by Paul. 1 & 2 Timot ...[text shortened]... at all three passages quoted by Josephw in his second post came from the Pastoral Epistles.
    I am well aware of the dispute over theses epistles authorship.
    I am disputing your statement that "the majority" of biblical scholars do not give Paul credit for them. ( 1&2 Timothy and Titus)

    I am going to copy the following because it easier for me than to type it out.


    "The texts of both 1 and 2 Timothy clearly state that they are written by the Apostle Paul: "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God..." (2 Tim 1:1a).

    The early church clearly accepted them as genuinely Pauline. They were probably known to the author of Clement (ca. 96 AD). Several passages in the letters of Ignatius (ca. 110 AD) seem to show dependence on them. Polycarp of Smyrna (ca. 117 AD) cited them, as did Justin Martyr (ca. 140 AD). They were rejected by the heretical Marcion Canon (ca. 150 AD) according to Tertullian, because of their emphasis on church discipline. They are clearly attributed to Paul by Irenaeus (ca. 180 AD).

    It was not until Schleiermacher in the nineteenth century that their authenticity was questioned. Today, a majority of New Testament scholars consider them to be written by a disciple of Paul, not Paul himself. . There is no dispute, however, that the Pastoral Epistles were accepted by the early church as written by Paul himself."

    http://www.jesuswalk.com/timothy/0_intro.htm
  15. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    14 Aug '10 16:08
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    [b]I am well aware of the dispute over theses epistles authorship.
    I am disputing your statement that "the majority" of biblical scholars do not give Paul credit for them. ( 1&2 Timothy and Titus)

    I am going to copy the following because it easier for me than to type it out.


    "The texts of both 1 and 2 Timothy clearly state that they are wr ...[text shortened]... early church as written by Paul himself."

    http://www.jesuswalk.com/timothy/0_intro.htm[/b]
    You might want to try reading an impartial source on that for a change. One that doesn't have a vested interest in maintaining Paul's authorship. There is a difference between a biblical scholar and a biblical apologist.
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