1. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    19 Jan '10 22:14
    ego/pleasure. pleasure/knowledge. knowledge/pain. death/sufferring. suffering/life. life/spiral. spiral/realm. realm/dot . dot/dot
  2. Joined
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    19 Jan '10 23:06
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    ego/pleasure. pleasure/knowledge. knowledge/pain. death/sufferring. suffering/life. life/spiral. spiral/realm. realm/dot . dot/dot
    everything's a circle - it's just so hard to see
  3. Donationbuckky
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    19 Jan '10 23:15
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    ego/pleasure. pleasure/knowledge. knowledge/pain. death/sufferring. suffering/life. life/spiral. spiral/realm. realm/dot . dot/dot
    It's like a dog chasing his tail. The ego never lets up on the illusion it presents.
  4. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    20 Jan '10 03:09
    Are there any exceptions to this 'carrot and stick' approach to understanding spirituality? I dont see any for the traditional inhabitants of this planet,(ie. the ones that came here through a womb). Given this, why do some have a problem understanding that pleasure is the primary motivator of anyones quest to find God?
    The laws of cause and effect dictate that everything has its inevitble opposite. eg.those that take drugs to feel good will have to deal with feeling bad sooner or later. Everything balances out and justice prevails in the end. In this context I would advocate knowing and loving and pleasuring yourself as a doorway to be able to compassionately and intelligently do the same for others.
    I suppose there are going to be some exceptional people that will be truly able to put aside there own needs and wants to take care of other'. But those will not have a problem with understanding their place in the universe(me suspects). As for the rest I always find it mighty difficult to understand why people cant understanding the basic concepts of humanity, that the religon of humanity prevades all religons, and that the basic laws of humanity,(ie.being human,free will,emtions,etc.), cannot be escaped by anyone so should be acknowledged and enderstood properly to improve the lot of humanity in general.
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    20 Jan '10 14:53
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Are there any exceptions to this 'carrot and stick' approach to understanding spirituality? ...
    There probably isn't for the simple reason that the vast majority of spiritual or religious beliefs have to, at some point, address the issue of good and in evil in the context of good and evil as they view it.
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    20 Jan '10 20:10
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    everything's a circle - it's just so hard to see
    =============================
    everything's a circle - it's just so hard to see
    ==============================


    God says that the circle starts and ends with Him.

    He is the Alpha and the Omega.
    He is the Beginning and the End.
    He is the First and the Last.

    We can be lost in the love of our Heavenly Father and not go mad with the sense of futility and vanity of a Fatherless circular existence.
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    21 Jan '10 05:41
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Are there any exceptions to this 'carrot and stick' approach to understanding spirituality? I dont see any for the traditional inhabitants of this planet,(ie. the ones that came here through a womb). Given this, why do some have a problem understanding that pleasure is the primary motivator of anyones quest to find God?
    The laws of cause and effect di ...[text shortened]... so should be acknowledged and enderstood properly to improve the lot of humanity in general.
    the boddhisattva learns to dwell without thought-coverings - in the absence of thought-coverings he has not been made to tremble - going, going, gone, until you lose your breath shimmering...

    earthly desires are enlightenment
  8. Illinois
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    21 Jan '10 06:00
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Are there any exceptions to this 'carrot and stick' approach to understanding spirituality? I dont see any for the traditional inhabitants of this planet,(ie. the ones that came here through a womb). Given this, why do some have a problem understanding that pleasure is the primary motivator of anyones quest to find God?
    The laws of cause and effect di ...[text shortened]... so should be acknowledged and enderstood properly to improve the lot of humanity in general.
    Given this, why do some have a problem understanding that pleasure is the primary motivator of anyones quest to find God?

    Have you ever read Viktor Frankl's book, The Will to Meaning? If not, you should. He contends that the primary motivating force of an individual is to find meaning.
  9. Hmmm . . .
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    21 Jan '10 06:45
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    [b]Given this, why do some have a problem understanding that pleasure is the primary motivator of anyones quest to find God?

    Have you ever read Viktor Frankl's book, The Will to Meaning? If not, you should. He contends that the primary motivating force of an individual is to find meaning.[/b]
    Good book! To be fair, Frankl writes as a therapist—not a philosopher or theologian. He would not dissuade anyone from whatever meaning (or meaningful pursuit) was therapeutic—that is, life-saving or life-enhancing: giving of well-being—for them, even if is seemed trivial to someone else. His time in the concentration camps gives his insight authority (at least in my mind).
  10. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    21 Jan '10 07:26
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    [b]Given this, why do some have a problem understanding that pleasure is the primary motivator of anyones quest to find God?

    Have you ever read Viktor Frankl's book, The Will to Meaning? If not, you should. He contends that the primary motivating force of an individual is to find meaning.[/b]
    Does he define meaning?
  11. Hmmm . . .
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    21 Jan '10 07:39
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Does he define meaning?
    From memory: he understands meaning as what gives enough significance to life for one to want to go on living. (In the concentration camps, one of the things that was significant to Frankl was the possibility of seeing his wife again; a second one was a book that he had been writing, and for which he kept notes on scraps of paper.) Meaning, broadly, is whatever allows one to not only endure suffering, but also to thrive (given less arduous circumstances than the concentration camp!).

    This is not necessarily meaning in terms of an acceptable explanation for events.
  12. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    21 Jan '10 08:26
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    [b]Given this, why do some have a problem understanding that pleasure is the primary motivator of anyones quest to find God?

    Have you ever read Viktor Frankl's book, The Will to Meaning? If not, you should. He contends that the primary motivating force of an individual is to find meaning.[/b]
    I'm sure its a good book and I will put it on my library list.
    As regards to 'meaning' I dont really subscribe to the idea. I prefer to go with something along the lines of TJ's last post.
    "Meaning" is something that humans impose on their surroundings to give them direction and maybe courage.
    At the end of the day the ultimate meaning of life (or spirituality) is beyond our grasps. Temporary meanings may get us through but everything has to be abandonded in the end
  13. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    21 Jan '10 08:26
    Originally posted by vistesd
    From memory: he understands meaning as what gives enough significance to life for one to want to go on living. (In the concentration camps, one of the things that was significant to Frankl was the possibility of seeing his wife again; a second one was a book that he had been writing, and for which he kept notes on scraps of paper.) Meaning, broadly, is ...[text shortened]... on camp!).

    This is not necessarily meaning in terms of an acceptable explanation for events.
    Have you read anything by concentration camp survivor Jean Amery?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Am%C3%A9ry
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    21 Jan '10 12:101 edit
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I'm sure its a good book and I will put it on my library list.
    As regards to 'meaning' I dont really subscribe to the idea. I prefer to go with something along the lines of TJ's last post.
    "Meaning" is something that humans impose on their surroundings to give them direction and maybe courage.
    At the end of the day the ultimate meaning of life (or ...[text shortened]... sps. Temporary meanings may get us through but everything has to be abandonded in the end
    To leave the strictly spiritual, Nietzsche said (as a dig at John Stuart Mill,) "Man does not seek pleasure, only the Englishman does."

    But this is the paradox of all existence, every moment of life brings you a moment closer to death. This is one reason why one-dimensional philosophies seem so hollow confronted with the hard cold realities of living. They say "all good flows from..." and then when the bad happens (as it always must) they say "this is a mystery no one can explain!" Gautama taught the middle way. Read (or re-read) "Siddharta" by Hesse. He is asking your same question. The thought-covering is mistaking the dream for being awake. Can you categorize your life while you are living it? "Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail? A smile from a veil?"

    I say again: Nirvana is Samsara.
  15. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    21 Jan '10 14:361 edit
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    To leave the strictly spiritual, Nietzsche said (as a dig at John Stuart Mill,) "Man does not seek pleasure, only the Englishman does."

    But this is the paradox of all existence, every moment of life brings you a moment closer to death. This is one reason why one-dimensional philosophies seem so hollow confronted with the hard cold realities of living. ield from a cold steel rail? A smile from a veil?"

    I say again: Nirvana is Samsara.
    Well put. Nice use of song lyrics!
    I guess it doesn't matter where on the circle we start our trip, just as long as we start it. We will invetably come across the same 'life lessons' as every other seeker.
    Every one finds the same archetypes of Life when they follow their dharmas with an honest heart. These archetypes may have different thought coverings but ultimately they are the same for everyone.
    The 10 000 things all come from the one thing and the one thing (which is no thing at all) ultimately leads to the 10 000 things.
    But each time we strike upon certain truths we wear down that rock with the drips of water (thoughts) until that rock finally disperses.
    edit: and so that which started as a linear experience comes to be recognized as a circular experience , however , upon even closer inspection, that circular experience is actually realized as a spiral!
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