20 May 06
When discussing morality there's little point in saying things like , I believe in honesty , compassion or not harming others. The world is full of the majority of us who broadly believe these things. Atheists seem to use these criteria to say things like "I don't need a God to know what's right and what's wrong" .
However....
The real issue at hand about moral values is how far we are all prepared to go to follow these morals. What will honesty cost us When do we exercise it? Do we believe in not hurting people but only if there isn't a war on then it's Ok ? When we say compassion do we just mean the people we like or don't hurt us? Without these considerations saying .." I believe in honesty , compassion and not hurting other human beings".... becomes an abstract throwaway statement that doesn't tell anyone much.
Everyone broadly agrees with these concepts Christians and Atheists and Agnostics but for Christians this is not enough....the question isn't "do you love?" ...but it's always "how much do you love?" So how do Atheists factor in this important dimension? I'm sure you guys wrestle with stuff...
20 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterMorals are a social and religous fabrication , see Nietzsche 'The genealogy of morals' .have I been understood?
When discussing morality there's little point in saying things like , I believe in honesty , compassion or not harming others. The world is full of the majority of us who broadly believe these things. Atheists seem to use these criteria to say things like "I don't need a God to know what's right and what's wrong" .
However....
The real issue at ...[text shortened]... s factor in this important dimension? I'm sure you guys wrestle with stuff...
20 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterIt's easier for Christians. They think they have super rad cool presents waiting for them if they act in a certain way and a horrible torment waiting if they don't obey. Thus morality becomes a question of self interest for them and altruism is no longer possible.
When discussing morality there's little point in saying things like , I believe in honesty , compassion or not harming others. The world is full of the majority of us who broadly believe these things. Atheists seem to use these criteria to say things like "I don't need a God to know what's right and what's wrong" .
However....
The real issue at ...[text shortened]... s factor in this important dimension? I'm sure you guys wrestle with stuff...
20 May 06
Originally posted by AThousandYoungWho cares what they think , as long as they behave like decent human beings, instead of lawgivers with the power to extract peoples souls out of their bodies.
It's easier for Christians. They think they have super rad cool presents waiting for them if they act in a certain way and a horrible torment waiting if they don't obey. Thus morality becomes a question of self interest for them and altruism is no longer possible.
21 May 06
Originally posted by AThousandYoungNo sir. It's not as easy as that! Have you not understood the saved by faith argument? God does not calculate our actions based on a super morality fruit machine calculator system. This would imply that once we have enough air miles we can fly off into heaven! The bible says our righteousness is as rags to God , so it doesn't matter how much you obey or do good things it's not going to buy you a ticket. It's good job God doesn't take our actions into account otherwise we'd all be in trouble! Your nice presents analogy doesn't work, I'll grant you some Christians think like this but the Bible clearly states that you can't 'earn' heaven , it's a gift to be accepted or refused.
It's easier for Christians. They think they have super rad cool presents waiting for them if they act in a certain way and a horrible torment waiting if they don't obey. Thus morality becomes a question of self interest for them and altruism is no longer possible.
So if you criticise Christianity in this way please make the effort to find out what it really says rather than respond to inaccurate assumptions.
21 May 06
Originally posted by Vladamir no1Ah , so Nietzche said it ....sorry I didn't realise ! I must be up the creek with this one!! As everyone knows Nietzche is always right.....silly me.
Morals are a social and religous fabrication , see Nietzsche 'The genealogy of morals' .have I been understood?
21 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterWhen one makes a fallacious appeal to authority , is it proper to answer with an equally fallacious appeal to ridicule?
Ah , so Nietzche said it ....sorry I didn't realise ! I must be up the creek with this one!! As everyone knows Nietzche is always right.....silly me.
You argue like merde ( ask Doctor Scribbles for the translation if you need to)
MERDE!!! I say to you.
21 May 06
Originally posted by frogstompSorry I didn't know he was being fallacious. I nearly always argue in good faith and often it is not reciprocated so forgive me my indiscretion. It's hard when you feel you are outnumbered. Does your heart bleed for me?
When one makes a fallacious appeal to authority , is it proper to answer with an equally fallacious appeal to ridicule?
You argue like merde ( ask Doctor Scribbles for the translation if you need to)
MERDE!!! I say to you.
21 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterJust for the record, I have no heart.
Sorry I didn't know he was being fallacious. I nearly always argue in good faith and often it is not reciprocated so forgive me my indiscretion. It's hard when you feel you are outnumbered. Does your heart bleed for me?
21 May 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterYour nice presents analogy doesn't work, I'll grant you some Christians think like this but the Bible clearly states that you can't 'earn' heaven , it's a gift to be accepted or refused.
No sir. It's not as easy as that! Have you not understood the saved by faith argument? God does not calculate our actions based on a super morality fruit machine calculator system. This would imply that once we have enough air miles we can fly off into heaven! The bible says our righteousness is as rags to God , so it doesn't matter how much you obey ...[text shortened]... ffort to find out what it really says rather than respond to inaccurate assumptions.
But you can only accept it if you act in certain ways, right? Or at least make your best effort to do so...
22 May 06
Originally posted by AThousandYoungNo. Not even that. You can only accept it if God empowers you through his Spirit to accept it. Even in this area your best efforts will not neccessarily do you any good. The gift is offered to you and the giver himself makes it possible for you to receive it , the only part you play is to either resist the process (through your own pride) or to allow God to go about the business of saving you (surrender)
[b]Your nice presents analogy doesn't work, I'll grant you some Christians think like this but the Bible clearly states that you can't 'earn' heaven , it's a gift to be accepted or refused.
But you can only accept it if you act in certain ways, right? Or at least make your best effort to do so...[/b]