1. Joined
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    11 Aug '11 14:31
    I am sick and tired of trying to argue evolution with some fine gentlemen on this site. Or how believing in a higher power doesn't necessarily make you a sub human.

    So here is something slightly different:

    YouTube

    a deleted scene from dogma. what do you think about the ideas put forth by the snazzy dressed pimp in his monologue? (he's supposed to be a fallen angel if you didn't see dogma)

    what do you think of the idea that perhaps god doesn't necessarily punish with an eternity of pain but rather an eternity of "lack of god's presence". this is a reference to dante's view of righteous heathens: that they don't go to hell for not believing in god(in divine comedy, the christian god) but rather they suffer for not being near him.
  2. Joined
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    11 Aug '11 14:58
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    I am sick and tired of trying to argue evolution with some fine gentlemen on this site. Or how believing in a higher power doesn't necessarily make you a sub human.

    So here is something slightly different:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9qAqwIW704

    a deleted scene from dogma. what do you think about the ideas put forth by the snazzy dressed pimp in ...[text shortened]... god(in divine comedy, the christian god) but rather they suffer for not being near him.
    ======================================
    what do you think of the idea that perhaps god doesn't necessarily punish with an eternity of pain but rather an eternity of "lack of god's presence".
    =========================================


    Don't you think it would be His responsibility to warn us of the misery of such a state ? And this must be communicated to many generations in terms that all generations can comprehend.

    Should He not paint the realistic picture to us that such a world without the presence of the Soure of all blessing is, by definition, a hell of an existence ?
  3. Joined
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    11 Aug '11 15:11
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]======================================
    what do you think of the idea that perhaps god doesn't necessarily punish with an eternity of pain but rather an eternity of "lack of god's presence".
    =========================================


    Don't you think it would be His responsibility to warn us of the misery of such a state ? And this mu ...[text shortened]... he presence of the Soure of all blessing is, by definition, a hell of an existence ?[/b]
    sure, but why should it be
    1) such a bad state
    2) eternal
    ?


    we have like about 60 years of existence. is it sensible to think that 60 years (let's say 45, what you do as a 10 year old shouldn't count) will decide the state in which you spend eternity? without hope for forgiveness if you botch things up? without hope for forgiveness or a second chance from a god that is eternal and forgiving?

    or the other side, that if you are good for 45 years, you shall be in heaven forever where you might actually be a jerk and still be entitled to that spot.
  4. Unknown Territories
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    11 Aug '11 15:38
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    sure, but why should it be
    1) such a bad state
    2) eternal
    ?


    we have like about 60 years of existence. is it sensible to think that 60 years (let's say 45, what you do as a 10 year old shouldn't count) will decide the state in which you spend eternity? without hope for forgiveness if you botch things up? without hope for forgiveness or a second chanc ...[text shortened]... ll be in heaven forever where you might actually be a jerk and still be entitled to that spot.
    This is a timed event.
    We each make up our own minds within the parameters of the game.
    We exhibit an understanding the importance of the decision by virtue of thoughts, activity, energy and efforts put toward said decision.
    Thought is the sole pivot in the endeavor: not action.
    God's thought-preceding-action (speech) led to existence.
    Man's action led to his fall.
    God's action (hypostatic union, qualified life and subsequent death) caused our redemption. God's action is perfect.
    Man cannot act (lacking in perfection) to obtain his salvation; he can only think (basic unit of measure in God's economy).
    Regardless of man's state, God remains God, thereby glorious: neither destination diminishes God's glory or compromises His perfection.
    Therefore, all the glory goes to Him.
  5. Cape Town
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    11 Aug '11 16:35
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    what do you think of the idea that perhaps god doesn't necessarily punish with an eternity of pain but rather an eternity of "lack of god's presence". this is a reference to dante's view of righteous heathens: that they don't go to hell for not believing in god(in divine comedy, the christian god) but rather they suffer for not being near him.
    I think it is a typical Christian apologists tactic of hiding the problem under layers then pretending it has gone away. The funny thing is, that when they do that, they essentially admit the problem exists.
    Its quite irrelevant what the 'punishment' consists of. The fact remains that there is punishment for some, and the question of whether or not it is deserved must be asked. And equally, the question of whether or not it is fair that some do not receive the punishment.
    Simply calling the punishment 'lack of reward' does not change the basic question one bit.
  6. Standard memberRJHinds
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    11 Aug '11 18:19
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I think it is a typical Christian apologists tactic of hiding the problem under layers then pretending it has gone away. The funny thing is, that when they do that, they essentially admit the problem exists.
    Its quite irrelevant what the 'punishment' consists of. The fact remains that there is punishment for some, and the question of whether or not it is ...[text shortened]...
    Simply calling the punishment 'lack of reward' does not change the basic question one bit.
    Jesus, the Son of God and only sinless man, will be the judge and I am sure His
    judgment will be fair. He has experienced unfair judgment.
  7. Cape Town
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    11 Aug '11 19:11
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Jesus, the Son of God and only sinless man, will be the judge and I am sure His
    judgment will be fair. He has experienced unfair judgment.
    Well most Christians assure me that the decision as to who goes to heaven and who doesn't, has nothing to do with Judgement, but is an apparently based on whether or not someone believed in Jesus. Clearly not fair at all.
  8. Standard memberPalynka
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    11 Aug '11 19:29
    If you don't believe in auras, you'll have a bad aura. 😵
  9. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    11 Aug '11 19:45
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Well most Christians assure me that the decision as to who goes to heaven and who doesn't, has nothing to do with Judgement, but is an apparently based on whether or not someone believed in Jesus. Clearly not fair at all.
    Why is it not fair? Jesus is the one that paid the debt for our sins.
  10. Standard memberwolfgang59
    evolved
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    13 Aug '11 09:39
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    I am sick and tired of trying to argue evolution with some fine gentlemen on this site. Or how believing in a higher power doesn't necessarily make you a sub human.

    So here is something slightly different:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9qAqwIW704

    a deleted scene from dogma. what do you think about the ideas put forth by the snazzy dressed pimp in ...[text shortened]... god(in divine comedy, the christian god) but rather they suffer for not being near him.
    Mankind has infected Hell.

    Nice one!
  11. Joined
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    16 Aug '11 09:40
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Mankind has infected Hell.

    Nice one!
    dogma(the movie) has better ideas than many fundamentalist churches. sadly, this scene was deleted from the movie. many possible reasons, possibly the philosophy in it was thought to be too hard for poor movie goers, possibly they thought it will piss the fundies even more(even if most fundies protesting the movie confessed to never having watched it). it would have given more depth to the azrael character.
  12. Standard memberwolfgang59
    evolved
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    16 Aug '11 10:14
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Why is it not fair? Jesus is the one that paid the debt for our sins.
    What "debt" did Jesus pay??

    Many were crucified and his was particularly light (accordingh to scriptire).

    Do you not think that others have paid a higher price?
  13. Houston, Texas
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    16 Aug '11 11:28
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Why is it not fair? Jesus is the one that paid the debt for our sins.
    Ha. Sorry.
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