1. Melbourne, Australia
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    24 Aug '06 02:19
    'I was sure the mother was guilty.'
    So have said many people I've come across in the last few days.

    'Why would you have thought that?' I ask.

    'Well, that's what everyone else was saying.'

    Now if everyone else is saying that Evolution is incorrect, or indeed that it is correct, do you believe this for that reason? Or do you make up your own mind?
    The reality of our world is that we have to rely on others to help us make decisions about these things. You can't - or most normal people can't - spend your whole life determining the validity or otherwise of everything that goes on around you.
    So what do we trust to help us out? Who do we trust to help us out?

    What's my point?
    Not much, other than that there will always be disagreements on these things. And thank whatever Gods there are for that - because the world would be a boring place otherwise.
  2. Donationkirksey957
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    24 Aug '06 02:37
    Originally posted by amannion
    'I was sure the mother was guilty.'
    So have said many people I've come across in the last few days.

    'Why would you have thought that?' I ask.

    'Well, that's what everyone else was saying.'

    Now if everyone else is saying that Evolution is incorrect, or indeed that it is correct, do you believe this for that reason? Or do you make up your own mind?
    ...[text shortened]... atever Gods there are for that - because the world would be a boring place otherwise.
    "Who do we trust to help us out?" Don't ever trust parents who parade their kids around like JonBenet was.
  3. Melbourne, Australia
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    24 Aug '06 02:47
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    "Who do we trust to help us out?" Don't ever trust parents who parade their kids around like JonBenet was.
    They were doing what they thought was good for her.
    Just like other parents parade their kids through football matches or ballet or music lessons or whatever - there's no difference.

    And being a parent doesn't come with instructions.
    You're making it up as you go - including all the flaws that come with you as a person to begin with.
  4. Donationkirksey957
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    24 Aug '06 11:30
    Originally posted by amannion
    They were doing what they thought was good for her.
    Just like other parents parade their kids through football matches or ballet or music lessons or whatever - there's no difference.

    And being a parent doesn't come with instructions.
    You're making it up as you go - including all the flaws that come with you as a person to begin with.
    How could dressing her up like a whore be good for her? There's a big difference between that and piano lessons. Clearly all this nonsense they were putting on her was just an extension of mom's ego. She was Miss West Virginia I believe. Mom needed a job.
  5. Standard membermokko
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    24 Aug '06 12:03
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    How could dressing her up like a whore be good for her? There's a big difference between that and piano lessons. Clearly all this nonsense they were putting on her was just an extension of mom's ego. She was Miss West Virginia I believe. Mom needed a job.
    Agreed and rec'd
  6. Cape Town
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    24 Aug '06 14:23
    Originally posted by amannion
    'I was sure the mother was guilty.'
    So have said many people I've come across in the last few days.

    'Why would you have thought that?' I ask.

    'Well, that's what everyone else was saying.'

    Now if everyone else is saying that Evolution is incorrect, or indeed that it is correct, do you believe this for that reason? Or do you make up your own mind?
    ...[text shortened]... atever Gods there are for that - because the world would be a boring place otherwise.
    For some things you trust the opinion of others who you consider to be trustworthy in that field.
    However when something is controvercial, you should not rely too heavily on other peoples opinion ie either study the subject yourself or remain sceptical. There are many areas in science where the information I have available to me is not enough for me to form my own opinion, and although I listen to the opinion of others I will still allow a bit of scepticism. That is different from fundamentalist types who form an opinion before they even undersand the facts then attempt to defend that opinion even when they themselves can see the facts to not match thier opinion.
    In my personal opinion, the basic processes behind evolution are obvious to me and it is clear to me that many of them are taking place all the time and I observe them myself. For the extrapolation based on fosil evidence etc I must at least accept that I can never study every fosil ever discovered.
  7. Melbourne, Australia
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    24 Aug '06 22:17
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    How could dressing her up like a whore be good for her? There's a big difference between that and piano lessons. Clearly all this nonsense they were putting on her was just an extension of mom's ego. She was Miss West Virginia I believe. Mom needed a job.
    That's purely subjective.
    Your view is she was dressed up like a whore.

    Her mother was a beauty queen, and she wanted her daughter to be one too.
    How is that any different from a father who played football wanting his son to also play football?
  8. Donationkirksey957
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    24 Aug '06 23:30
    Originally posted by amannion
    That's purely subjective.
    Your view is she was dressed up like a whore.

    Her mother was a beauty queen, and she wanted her daughter to be one too.
    How is that any different from a father who played football wanting his son to also play football?
    This is an excellent question and I will try to answer it. From a very young age this child was encouraged to engage in a public display of accentuating her beauty. She wore elaborate costumes that I think most people would have found provocative for someone of her age. While you may find my perceptions based on subjectiveness, there is an entire area of psychology devoted to children who "grow up to fast". They are most often pushed by their parents and the end result is that these children lose the innocents of their childhood. I believe David Elkind has written extensively about this phenomonen.

    You asked what makes this different from a father who wants his son to play football. There may not be much difference. The question is this: "can the father tolerate his son not being good at it?" Is it permissible for the kid to have fun and not have to indulge the parents' need to have the child live out their fantasies through the parents. I have looked at tapes of the Ramsey family and I can assure you that this mother was clearly indulging this child to live in a make believe world that excluded her from being a child.

    The tragic irony is that they wanted this child to receive all of this attention from these beauty pagents and ultimately she got more attention than she needed.
  9. Melbourne, Australia
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    24 Aug '06 23:43
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    This is an excellent question and I will try to answer it. From a very young age this child was encouraged to engage in a public display of accentuating her beauty. She wore elaborate costumes that I think most people would have found provocative for someone of her age. While you may find my perceptions based on subjectiveness, there is an entire area ...[text shortened]... attention from these beauty pagents and ultimately she got more attention than she needed.
    Yes, you're probably right.
    And don't mistake my argument for approving of either pushing your kids into beauty contests or football.

    There is muc to be said for letting your kids be kids ...
  10. Donationkirksey957
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    24 Aug '06 23:48
    Originally posted by amannion
    Yes, you're probably right.
    And don't mistake my argument for approving of either pushing your kids into beauty contests or football.

    There is muc to be said for letting your kids be kids ...
    One of the most gifted cellists to ever live is Yo-Yo Ma whom I would give an honorary membership in my clan just for his name. I heard a wonderful interview with him in which he talked about instilling the gift of music in children. One would expect him to really make it a drudgery, but he said if children can't have fun at music it really isn't worth it. He credits his teacher as a child as one who instilled this love of music in him.
  11. Melbourne, Australia
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    24 Aug '06 23:51
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    One of the most gifted cellists to ever live is Yo-Yo Ma whom I would give an honorary membership in my clan just for his name. I heard a wonderful interview with him in which he talked about instilling the gift of music in children. One would expect him to really make it a drudgery, but he said if children can't have fun at music it really isn't worth it. He credits his teacher as a child as one who instilled this love of music in him.
    I couldn't agree more with you.
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