1. Maryland
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    20 Nov '11 22:051 edit
    Can some one explain to me how God allowing his only begotten son to be tortured to death absolves believers of their sins? What is the connection? Is God not bright enough to have been able to figure out a less sadistic way to accomplish the same task?
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    20 Nov '11 22:28
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Can some one explain to me how God allowing his only begotten son to be tortured to death absolves believers of their sins? What is the connection? Is God not bright enough to have been able to figure out a less sadistic way to accomplish the same task?
    yes but you wouldn't understand it , nor accept it, so what's the point.
  3. Maryland
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    20 Nov '11 22:34
    I don't think you can explain it.
  4. St. Peter's
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    21 Nov '11 01:29
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Can some one explain to me how God allowing his only begotten son to be tortured to death absolves believers of their sins? What is the connection? Is God not bright enough to have been able to figure out a less sadistic way to accomplish the same task?
    😴😴😴😴

    this topic has been thoroughly discussed, with the theists making mince meat of the athiests. I'm not going to bother with any further discussion on this matter, as it will fall on deaf ears.
  5. SubscriberFMF
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    21 Nov '11 02:09
    Originally posted by Doward
    this topic has been thoroughly discussed, with the theists making mince meat of the athiests. I'm not going to bother with any further discussion on this matter, as it will fall on deaf ears.
    It's interesting that you feel the need to actively express what comes across as a kind of contempt. Why do you think that the fact that you personally are "not going to bother with any further discussion on this matter" needs to be mentioned? Wouldn't simply not contributing to this thread demonstrate exactly that, but without the mean spirited swipe at people whose belief system is different from yours?
  6. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    21 Nov '11 02:21
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Can some one explain to me how God allowing his only begotten son to be tortured to death absolves believers of their sins? What is the connection? Is God not bright enough to have been able to figure out a less sadistic way to accomplish the same task?
    It's based on the old Jewish scapegoat ritual.
  7. Standard membersumydid
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    21 Nov '11 02:521 edit
    It was God allowing Himself in human form to be sacrificed for us, as opposed to Him asking us to sacrifice for Him all the time. He showed once and for all how it is done and done perfectly.

    As for your charge of God having a sadistic nature, the event clearly shows if anything, mankind's sadistic nature and God's merciful willingness to submit to it just this once.

    He won't do it again. In the very end, when we all turn in our golf scorecards, there will be no mulligans.
  8. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    21 Nov '11 03:102 edits
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Can some one explain to me how God allowing his only begotten son to be tortured to death absolves believers of their sins? What is the connection? Is God not bright enough to have been able to figure out a less sadistic way to accomplish the same task?
    In my way of thinking , (I'm assuming this story is true, which it may not be, but let's just say it is), "God" was showing us how tuff his "Son" was, how he could get tortured to the point of near death and still not convert. "God" showed us that JC was so tuff that he would take everything they could dish up and still not 'give God up'.
    JC is supposed to be an example of how tuff we need to be to get to heaven.
    It's a spiritual strength, not a physical one.
    Have you seen the Mel Gibson movie, I think it was called "The Last temptation of Christ". (I could be wrong with the title here, but I'm sure someone will correct me.)

    In that movie Mel Gibson tries to depict EXACTLY what christ went through in the last days of his life. He was repeatedly whipped by the cat 'o' nine tails ,(ripping hunks of flesh as they slammed it into him) and other tortures that no human could possibly bear.
    What I am trying to get at hear is that JC would've needed to be a super human to stand that sort of treatment and then still have enough strength left to carry that huge cross up that hill.
    Uh-uh. NO WAY. Absolutely no way a normal human could stand that . So either he had extra strength (from God) to stand up to that punishment or some of the story was embellished . (I am assuming that Gibson tried to make that movie as accurate as possible, as he had done with "Apocalypto" and "Braveheart" )

    So which was it (christians)? Was Mel going too far in his depiction, was the whole thing just made up, or did JC have super human strength? It has to be one of these options because there is absolutely no way even the most hardy and stongest person alive could've withstood that cat 'o' nine tails, let alone all the other punishments he was subject to.
  9. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    21 Nov '11 03:14
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yes but you wouldn't understand it , nor accept it, so what's the point.
    So why comment at all? Just to have another post up there with your name next to it. No . I think it was to say to Joe that he is ill-equipped to understand the explanation. Ridiculous Robbie. Just ridiculous. I am at a loss for words when you give "answers" like that. (but I gave it a shot🙂 )
  10. Cape Town
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    21 Nov '11 05:24
    Originally posted by Doward
    this topic has been thoroughly discussed, with the theists making mince meat of the athiests.
    How do you 'make mince meat' of someone during an explanation. Either you manage to explain something or you don't. There is no way to make the person you are explaining too look bad.
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    21 Nov '11 05:42
    Originally posted by sumydid
    It was God allowing Himself in human form to be sacrificed for us, as opposed to Him asking us to sacrifice for Him all the time. He showed once and for all how it is done and done perfectly.

    As for your charge of God having a sadistic nature, the event clearly shows if anything, mankind's sadistic nature and God's merciful willingness to submit to it ju ...[text shortened]... again. In the very end, when we all turn in our golf scorecards, there will be no mulligans.
    the problem is that he requires sacrifice at all.
  12. Standard memberRJHinds
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    21 Nov '11 06:281 edit
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Can some one explain to me how God allowing his only begotten son to be tortured to death absolves believers of their sins? What is the connection? Is God not bright enough to have been able to figure out a less sadistic way to accomplish the same task?
    http://carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/why-did-jesus-have-die-our-sins

    P.S. Do you think God should forgive Satan?
  13. Standard membersumydid
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    21 Nov '11 06:301 edit
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    the problem is that he requires sacrifice at all.
    Evidently He sees it as a demonstration of love and devotion. I think that's true in any relationship. If you are unwilling to make sacrifices, then the fact is, you don't truly love the other one.

    And, He doesn't require it. As evidenced by yourself and myriad others who simply reject any such notion. You are perfectly free to do what pleases you. That's the beauty of it. Free will. Being forced to sacrifice is not an exchange of love. Sacrificing freely and willingly... that's the kind of love God demonstrated and the kind He desires in return.
  14. Cape Town
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    21 Nov '11 07:181 edit
    Originally posted by sumydid
    Evidently He sees it as a demonstration of love and devotion. I think that's true in any relationship. If you are unwilling to make sacrifices, then the fact is, you don't truly love the other one.

    And, He doesn't require it. As evidenced by yourself and myriad others who simply reject any such notion. You are perfectly free to do what pleases nd willingly... that's the kind of love God demonstrated and the kind He desires in return.
    Yours is an explanation I have not heard before.

    So when God 'sacrificed' Jesus, he was demonstrating love for himself? For us?

    Why is sacrifice a demonstration of love and devotion? Why do you think it is true of all relationships?
    Is it still a demonstration of love and devotion when it doesn't benefit the person being loved? eg, am I showing love and devotion to my wife when I sacrifice a Chicken in her name? What if I chop off one of my fingers, would that count as love and devotion to someone?
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    21 Nov '11 18:37
    I think this is a great topic...I have asked this question and never really got a reasonable answer. If JC was showing us how it should be done....why didnt he go thru a real torture,,,,getting smacked around for a couple days and then getting killed isn't so bad when you see some of the torture that goes on in this world. I mean maybe if he had been tortured for 30 or 40 years like many innocent people are made to suffer through for no good reason it would be more impressive. Even then...if he knew...absolutly were sure that once he was finished he would resume his place as God....it hardly seems like a blink of an eye for an eternal being....
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