Fail blog: Evidence & Doubt

Written by Suzianne in Thread 159473 at the top of page 8:

There can be no proof of God because proof would undermine a key concept in religion, that of free will. So yes, God takes pains to prevent proof of His existence from being recorded. Man must come to God through faith alone. Proof destroys this.

Written by Suzianne in Thread 160145 at the bottom of page 1:

I'm as sure [that God exists] as I am of my own heartbeat, my own breath and my own brainwaves. There is no doubt. Doubt is for pansies.

Textbook example of a case in which one's psychological certainty irresponsibly outpaces the evidence. On the one hand, Suzianne actually claims that there can be no body of evidence that guarantees that God exists (no proof, as she says); on the other hand, she claims she has no doubt that God exists and even disparages such a notion.

Conviction and doubt are supposed to be apportioned as the evidence dictates. For a good cognizer, her conviction in the truth of P gets allocated based on the net strength of the evidence for it, and doubt naturally fills in the rest. If as Suzianne claims, no evidence can be such that it guarantees the truth of God's existence; then, obviously, there ought to naturally be at least some measure of doubt.

Like any recap of a solid FAIL, this really should go without saying….

Originally posted by LemonJello
Written by Suzianne in Thread 159473 at the top of page 8:

There can be no proof of God because proof would undermine a key concept in religion, that of free will. So yes, God takes pains to prevent proof of His existence from being recorded. Man must come to God through faith alone. Proof destroys this.

Written by Suziann ...[text shortened]... t some measure of doubt.

Like any recap of a solid FAIL, this really should go without saying….

"1. Does an Omnipotent Sovereign God Exist?" Thread 160145 (Page 1)

LemonJello, you may also be interested in Suzianne's replies within the context of your "Fail blog: Evidence & Doubt thread."

Inadvertent duplication. My apology.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Written by Suzianne in Thread 159473 at the top of page 8:

There can be no proof of God because proof would undermine a key concept in religion, that of free will. So yes, God takes pains to prevent proof of His existence from being recorded. Man must come to God through faith alone. Proof destroys this.

Written by Suzi ...[text shortened]... me measure of doubt.

Like any recap of a solid FAIL, this really should go without saying….

Has it crossed your mind that it is possible to be certain of something without absolute proof?

Originally posted by DeepThought
Has it crossed your mind that it is possible to be certain of something without absolute proof?

LemonJello debate tactics.

1. Wait till poster you disagree with leaves the forum due to disgust over debating tactics of those who disagree with them on the said forum.

2. Then post something to tear apart the said posters previous posts.

Brilliant!!

Whodey (and LJ), I'll reply to this in the morning when I get home, I'm on the mobile right now...

Originally posted by DeepThought
Has it crossed your mind that it is possible to be certain of something without absolute proof?

Of course it is possible to be certain of something without absolute proof. And this is an example. Like I said, it is a textbook example of a case in which one's psychological sureness outpaces the evidence.

Originally posted by whodey
LemonJello debate tactics.

1. Wait till poster you disagree with leaves the forum due to disgust over debating tactics of those who disagree with them on the said forum.

2. Then post something to tear apart the said posters previous posts.

Brilliant!!

Suzianne never actually left....

Originally posted by whodey
LemonJello debate tactics.

1. Wait till poster you disagree with leaves the forum due to disgust over debating tactics of those who disagree with them on the said forum.

2. Then post something to tear apart the said posters previous posts.

Brilliant!!

Yes, it's true I left the forum for the reasons you state. I kept listening/reading though. I popped in a few times, saying "I'm not really back", etc.

But now I guess the handwriting is on the wall, yeah, I guess I'm back.

As I told someone else, "Clearly, I'm needed here." 😀

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"1. Does an Omnipotent Sovereign God Exist?" Thread 160145 (Page 1)

LemonJello, you may also be interested in Suzianne's replies within the context of your "Fail blog: Evidence & Doubt thread."

That's where he got my quote, Bob.

Originally posted by Suzianne
That's where he got my quote, Bob.

Yes, Suzi. Realized the duplication hours later. I relate to your certainty and boldness in Him whom you have believed.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Textbook example of a case in which one's psychological certainty irresponsibly outpaces the evidence. On the one hand, Suzianne actually claims that there can be no body of evidence that guarantees that God exists (no proof, as she says); on the other hand, she claims she has no doubt that God exists and even disparages such a notion.

Conviction an ...[text shortened]... ome measure of doubt.

Like any recap of a solid FAIL, this really should go without saying….

Irresponsible? No, not at all.

I do not subscribe to your concept of Logic as God, that's all. Yes, I have "psychological certainty". Yes, there is no public "evidence" of God, nor can there ever be. Yes, I have no doubt, and yes, I disparage the idea of a Christian having doubt. (Non-Christians are welcome to as much doubt as they can carry. 🙂 )

"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." -- John 20:29, KJV

Conviction and doubt are supposed to be apportioned as the evidence dictates. For a good cognizer, her conviction in the truth of P gets allocated based on the net strength of the evidence for it, and doubt naturally fills in the rest. If as Suzianne claims, no evidence can be such that it guarantees the truth of God's existence; then, obviously, there ought to naturally be at least some measure of doubt.

"Supposed to be"? According to whom? I admit that this is usually the case, but in the case of God, this cannot ever be the case. You can apply your Logic statements all day long, but in the case of God, they are non-starters. This is the fail of atheists. God knows what is written on your heart, he cares little for your brain. In this case, knowledge is subservient and secondary to belief. If many Christians were honest, they would say their belief in God comes from their heart, not their brain, meaning they "feel" God exists rather than "thinking" He exists.

You call me a "cognizer", but I demur. My personality type is one of "feeling" not "thinking". Thinking is easy, it's feeling that is hard. It must be, plenty of people think, few feel. We need a few more "feelers" and a few less "thinkers" in my opinion. Belief in God is from the heart, not the brain.

This being said, let's go back to "proof" or "evidence". I believe that public "evidence" cannot be found. The concept of belief by free will is critical. Evidence destroys free will, because only a very stubborn (or stupid) person would continue to disbelieve after proof is given.

However, this does not discount evidence received after one has made their choice of belief. Nearly all "visions" recorded through the ages have come to believers. I am conscious of my belief in God and Jesus as a small child. I received my first visitation by angels at the age of 18 after I had decided to kill myself. (I won't bore you with the details why.) I had the gun in my hand. An angel appeared to me and told me I should wait on acting on my decision for one day. The next day I was rescued by my father from the situation I had been in for two years. This was enough proof for me of the power of God in my life. Almost three years later, at college, I accepted Jesus as my Savior and asked Him into my life and finally became a "real Christian". The point is, though, that I had already believed. I know that no one else would be moved by my proof, because for anyone else, it's not proof. My proof was only my own, for me alone.

While conviction is necessary for faith, doubt is not. Doubt works against faith. It is unfortunately a part and parcel of the human condition. One that needs to be overcome if one is to "endure to the end" regardless of enticement to renounce one's faith.

This is why we beseech others in this forum to believe, even though they have not seen. Believe, and be blessed.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Irresponsible? No, not at all.

I do not subscribe to your concept of Logic as God, that's all. Yes, I have "psychological certainty". Yes, there is no public "evidence" of God, nor can there ever be. Yes, I have no doubt, and yes, I disparage the idea of a Christian having doubt. (Non-Christians are welcome to as much doubt as they can carry. ...[text shortened]... seech others in this forum to believe, even though they have not seen. Believe, and be blessed.

You say man needs to come to that faith by him or her self, but what about the millions who never heard and never WILL hear about this god? They will just be left behind when your end days actually come?

There are so many inconsistencies in your religion, don't know why you don't see that.

There is this basic assumption religion has to be hierarchical, that a man like Moses comes down and tells everyone he has talked with god.

Why would a god need to speak only to one man? Why would not this allegedly omniscient god not want to talk to every human at once in their own language and remove all doubt?

If this god removed all doubt and therefore free will from one person why not everyone? I would think that the fighting we see right now in Gaza would come to an abrupt end and no more kids killed if that happened but it doesn't.

Why is it ok for one man to now not have free will while the rest of us must hang our lives on faith?
Moses no longer needed faith when he allegedly talked to god. Or one way from god to him, whatever happened. If there is a god, tell all of us, not just one person.

Your god did nothing to stop the literally tens of millions of deaths in century 20 from religious and secular wars so it is clear to me it either condones the killing or doesn't care. Doesn't that say SOMETHING about your god?

What was so different say 8000 years ago this god didn't start Judaism and Christianity back then? Humans were just as smart then as now and had started their own civilization, settling down to live in towns and grow crops for the first time.

Why not then?

Originally posted by sonhouse
You say man needs to come to that faith by him or her self, but what about the millions who never heard and never WILL hear about this god? They will just be left behind when your end days actually come?

There are so many inconsistencies in your religion, don't know why you don't see that.

There is this basic assumption religion has to be hierarchic ...[text shortened]... civilization, settling down to live in towns and grow crops for the first time.

Why not then?

You say man needs to come to that faith by him or her self, but what about the millions who never heard and never WILL hear about this god? They will just be left behind when your end days actually come?

I believe that if someone dies on earth without having the chance to hear about Jesus or God, they will be taught about them (possibly by a relative that preceded them in death) in the afterlife and then asked to make a choice to follow them or not. If a person dies and has worshipped another god, but has still never heard of the Abrahamic God or Jesus, they will still be taught about God and Jesus, but in relation to their old god. I believe that there will necessarily be less and less of these people as time goes on, and eventually all will have been taught and no more will come in without the knowledge of Jesus because with satellite technology and the internet, the time is fast approaching as prophesied when God will be made known to the entire world, and this shortly before the Tribulation begins. Now for the disclaimer. As far as I know, this is only my own personal view. I have read nothing outlining this idea and it is not covered in the Bible. I do know that no one who may choose God will be left behind.

There are so many inconsistencies in your religion, don't know why you don't see that.

No, I don't see that. First, Christianity is not MY religion, per se, but in MY version of "my religion", there are no inconsistencies. The inconsistencies you speak of are mainly in *your* perceptions and assumptions of "my religion".

There is this basic assumption religion has to be hierarchical, that a man like Moses comes down and tells everyone he has talked with god.

Why would a god need to speak only to one man? Why would not this allegedly omniscient god not want to talk to every human at once in their own language and remove all doubt?

All religion has prophets. This is because of what I keep telling you. It is important to maintain man's free will. Talking to every human at once in their own language is such a monumental thing that after such an event, there would be no question God exists. And suddenly man no longer has free will, because faith is no longer required.

If this god removed all doubt and therefore free will from one person why not everyone? I would think that the fighting we see right now in Gaza would come to an abrupt end and no more kids killed if that happened but it doesn't.

Why is it ok for one man to now not have free will while the rest of us must hang our lives on faith?
Moses no longer needed faith when he allegedly talked to god. Or one way from god to him, whatever happened. If there is a god, tell all of us, not just one person.

Man has free will in order to arrive at the decision of what direction his life will take on his own. No one can claim that God "coerced" them or that they were somehow "forced" into it. Man truly has his own destiny in his own hands. Men of faith, like Moses and Noah, had already decided when they were approached by God. Their free will had served its purpose. They had decided already. This is also why some people receive visions or talk to angels. They have already made their decision. It's not that they "no longer" have free will, it's just that any confirmation of their faith does not destroy their free will. Their decision has already been made.

Your god did nothing to stop the literally tens of millions of deaths in century 20 from religious and secular wars so it is clear to me it either condones the killing or doesn't care. Doesn't that say SOMETHING about your god?

I keep telling you that war and killing is not the fault of religion. It is the fault of evil men. The ones who die as martyrs to evil men will receive their reward in the Kingdom of God. The evil men themselves will also receive their reward, albeit a far different one. There's also the idea that stopping these evil men would also mess with someone's free will somewhere down the road. All of this person's followers would be denied the opportunity to make the wrong decision.
And why is it clear to you that the only two options are bad? "Either he condones the killing or he doesn't care." I maintain that he does NOT condone sin and that he does care very much. But oftentimes, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." This existence on earth is not "all there is", and what comes next for the righteous is beyond our imagining. God will make it right with these people.

What was so different say 8000 years ago this god didn't start Judaism and Christianity back then? Humans were just as smart then as now and had started their own civilization, settling down to live in towns and grow crops for the first time.

Why not then?

The time was not right. For a Savior to come and have effect for all men, man has to become a certain collective "age". Man has to have developed enough technology to ensure that the message gets out. Otherwise the Good News dies on the vine.

Anything else, sonhouse? I could do this all day. 😀

Originally posted by Suzianne
Irresponsible? No, not at all.

I do not subscribe to your concept of Logic as God, that's all. Yes, I have "psychological certainty". Yes, there is no public "evidence" of God, nor can there ever be. Yes, I have no doubt, and yes, I disparage the idea of a Christian having doubt. (Non-Christians are welcome to as much doubt as they can carry. ...[text shortened]... seech others in this forum to believe, even though they have not seen. Believe, and be blessed.

Let me add this to what Suzianne said in reference to your question:

Why would a god need to speak only to one man? Why would not this allegedly omniscient god not want to talk to every human at once in their own language and remove all doubt?

God did try to speak to all the people of Israel, but many of the people were afraid of God.

And the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I come to you in the thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and believe you forever.”

So Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes. And let them be ready for the third day. For on the third day the Lord will come down upon Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. You shall set bounds for the people all around, saying, ‘Take heed to yourselves that you do not go up to the mountain or touch its base. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. Not a hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot with an arrow; whether man or beast, he shall not live.’ When the trumpet sounds long, they shall come near the mountain.”

So Moses went down from the mountain to the people and sanctified the people, and they washed their clothes. And he said to the people, “Be ready for the third day; do not come near your wives.”

Then it came to pass on the third day, in the morning, that there were thunderings and lightnings, and a thick cloud on the mountain; and the sound of the trumpet was very loud, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. Now Mount Sinai was completely in smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire. Its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked greatly. And when the blast of the trumpet sounded long and became louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by voice. Then the Lord came down upon Mount Sinai, on the top of the mountain. And the Lord called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up.

And the Lord said to Moses, “Go down and warn the people, lest they break through to gaze at the Lord, and many of them perish. Also let the priests who come near the Lord consecrate themselves, lest the Lord break out against them.”

But Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up to Mount Sinai; for You warned us, saying, ‘Set bounds around the mountain and consecrate it.’”

Then the Lord said to him, “Away! Get down and then come up, you and Aaron with you. But do not let the priests and the people break through to come up to the Lord, lest He break out against them.” So Moses went down to the people and spoke to them.

And God spoke all these words, saying:

“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

“You shall have no other gods before Me.

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

“You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

“You shall not murder.

“You shall not commit adultery.

“You shall not steal.

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”


Now all the people witnessed the thunderings, the lightning flashes, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood afar off. Then they said to Moses, “You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.”

And Moses said to the people, “Do not fear; for God has come to test you, and that His fear may be before you, so that you may not sin.” So the people stood afar off, but Moses drew near the thick darkness where God was.

(Exodus 19:9-25; 20:1-21 NKJV)