Faith/Hope

Originally posted by FMF
You think Jesus Christ died to "forgive your sins" and "save" you, don't you? You think, as a result, you will have everlasting life, right? You think the Bible represents the true revelation of your God figure?

These concepts are NOT just the result of people "thinking" them.

And neither are they "superstitions".

And GI Joes are 'action figures', representations that are not alive. Our God is alive and not a 'figure' by any meaning of the word. If you're trying to 'summarize' our beliefs, you could leave out the blasphemous derision.

Originally posted by FMF
It is my observation that here on this SF, believers are pointedly unable to offer any convincing evidence to the assembled non-believers.

I don't think either you or, say, robbie carrobie, has ever 'converted' anyone here with your arguments or evidence. If you think you have, fair enough.

Religion is not about 'evidence' regardless of your effort to make it so.

And don't lump us all in with robbie, please.

Originally posted by sonship
..Eternal life is from God;s faithfulness + our faith. ...

Eternal life is from Gods faithfulness + our LIVING Faith.

The Bible identifies two kinds of faith... the living faith and the dead faith.

And this you well know but your hypocrisy and arrogance would not allow you the concede [as do the Apostles] that Christians can have faith that is dead, useless, without hope, fruitless and which will lead to eternal death.

The Living Faith comes from following the commandments of Christ, the end of which is life eternal.

Originally posted by Suzianne
These concepts are NOT just the result of people "thinking" them.

And neither are they "superstitions".

Believing things and thinking them are the same.

They are, in my view, superstitions as they are beliefs about supernatural causality. It quite simply is the word which expresses what I perceive.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Religion is not about 'evidence' regardless of your effort to make it so.

And yet religious people - including many here - spend much of their time trying to prove they are right in their beliefs by way of evidence. Haven't you expressed your religious belief that the world will end in your lifetime? And haven't you cited evidence about the world in support of your belief? It's just one example.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Eternal life is from Gods faithfulness + our LIVING Faith.

The Bible identifies two kinds of faith... the living faith and the dead faith.

And this you well know but your hypocrisy and arrogance would not allow you the concede [as do the Apostles] that Christians can have faith that is dead, useless, without hope, fruitless and which will lead to etern ...[text shortened]... Living Faith comes from following the commandments of Christ, the end of which is life eternal.

Eternal life is from Gods faithfulness + our LIVING Faith.

Okay.
Thank God for living faith.


The Bible identifies two kinds of faith... the living faith and the dead faith.
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James.

I love his book.


And this you well know but your hypocrisy and arrogance would not allow you the concede [as do the Apostles] that Christians can have faith that is dead, useless, without hope, fruitless and which will lead to eternal death.
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One more reason why we need to call on the Lord Jesus, and often.


The Living Faith comes from following the commandments of Christ, the end of which is life eternal.
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I have eternal life.
And the faith ... ? I actually have to thank God for any faith I have too.

Originally posted by Suzianne
And GI Joes are 'action figures', representations that are not alive. Our God is alive and not a 'figure' by any meaning of the word. If you're trying to 'summarize' our beliefs, you could leave out the blasphemous derision.

Your God figure is different from the Hindu God figure, for example. It's hardly "blasphemous" for a non-Christian to see it this way.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Au contraire. It is you who "cannot cope with ideas you can't agree with". Your sneering comes through loud and clear. Honest and fair? Sorry, that didn't get past the sneer on your face as you said it.

Which sentence in my post on the first page do you think was dishonest or unfair? I think I cope with ideas I disagree with very well partly because I understand pretty well what people I have disagreements with what they say and what they believe. You shouldn't hold it against people that they have different beliefs from you. I think you need to remember - at all times - that this is a debate and discussion forum.

Originally posted by FMF
You think Jesus Christ died to "forgive your sins" and "save" you, don't you? You think, as a result, you will have everlasting life, right? You think the Bible represents the true revelation of your God figure?

You think Jesus Christ died to "forgive your sins" and "save" you, don't you?

I know that I have been SAVED from many things in my life on this earth. I am encouraged the this SAVING must, as He said, extend even to beyond my stay on earth in this life.

I know that since I turned my life over to Jesus Christ, I have been SAVED from many very troublesome things. These instances of deliverance encouragement that He speaks reality when talking about saving in other senses also.

You think Jesus Christ died to "forgive your sins" and "save" you, don't you?

I have a faith that that integrity of Jesus is beyond questioning.
I think He demonstrated a kind of approvedness which inspires hope that His grasp on what what true is trustworthy.

Do you think that Jesus lived a life which inspires confidence that no man was ever so selfless and dedicated to reality as He was ?

If ever there was a man who was absolute for God, it is Jesus.
This absoluteness, this selfless dedication and consecration to His Father persuades me that I need to listen to what He was given to.

Shortly before the agony of His suffering, execution, and falling under darkness His apostles believed indicated His bearing the sins of the world, He said in absoluteness

" For this is the blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

"Why?" I contemplate - 'Why would such a man as this step forward voluntarily to such a fate? I believe He spoke what was true."

You think, as a result, you will have everlasting life, right? You think the Bible represents the true revelation of your God figure?

I believe Jesus is the Son of God.

I believe that He requires me to have eternal life because it fulfills part of His eternal purpose. My salvation fits into the eternal purpose of God. It is wonderful to be saved. It is wonderful to realize my salvation goes to the fulfillment of God's eternal purpose.

Originally posted by sonship
I believe Jesus is the Son of God.

I believe that He requires me to have eternal life because it fulfills part of His eternal purpose. My salvation fits into the eternal purpose of God. It is wonderful to be saved. It is wonderful to realize my salvation goes to the fulfillment of God's eternal purpose.

Like I said. It's a series and combination of things that you think about yourself, and about your God figure, and as a result you think you will have "eternal life". I don't think I have said anything especially controversial. Replacing my word "think" with the word "believe" doesn't change the meaning of what I said about how you arrive at thinking you are immortal. Earlier on this page you said "I have eternal life." This is something you think, and you have been telling people that it's what you think for as long as I've known you.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Eternal life is from Gods faithfulness + our LIVING Faith.

Okay.
Thank God for living faith.


The Bible identifies two kinds of faith... the living faith and the dead faith.
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James.

I love his book.


And this you well kn ...[text shortened]... rnal life.
And the [b]faith ... ? I actually have to thank God for any faith I have too.[/b]

Okay?
Yet you preach that DEAD FAITH will still lead to life eternal?
Only living faith leads to eternal life.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Okay?
Yet you preach that DEAD FAITH will still lead to life eternal?
Only living faith leads to eternal life.

I think I wrote last week something quite fair and evident about the New Testament.

Some passages speak phrases like - unto eternal life. This conveys quite well that eternal life is the outcome toward which a man is going.

The same is true of "salvation". There are phrases like "unto salvation" meaning as a outcome that issues out of something previous about the way one lives.

So you are right to point out these passages. But there are also passages which speak of having eternal life now or having received eternal life in the past.

And there are verses the tone of which is having salvation now or having received salvation in the past.

Both kinds of expressions should be revered and believed.

Having said that, and if you have not fallen asleep from your boredom, I would go on to say that this way of speaking makes PERFECT SENSE. It makes perfect sense because man is a three-part being - spirit and soul and body.

And this divine life SPREADS from the spirit into the soul and eventually will burst out to the body. So Paul speaks of sanctification which migrates out from the spirit through the soul and to the body - "sanctify you WHOLLY"

"And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23)

This salvation and this divine life is migrating from the kernel of a man, outward and outward from spirit to the outer soul on outward still to the physical body. The process transforming a man to bring him into a condition "blameless".


So eternal life and salvation rightly are spoken of as PAST - GOING ON IN THE PRESENT - AND TO BE OBTAINED IN THE FUTURE.

As to my spirit i was saved.
As to my soul I am in the process of being saved.
As to my body I await salvation.

Originally posted by sonship
I think I wrote last week something quite fair and evident about the New Testament.

Some passages speak phrases like - unto eternal life. This conveys quite well that eternal life is the outcome toward which a man is going.

The same is true of "salvation". There are phrases like "unto salvation" meaning as a outcome that issues out of something previo ...[text shortened]... s to my [b]soul I am in the process of being saved.
As to my body I await salvation.[/b]

You have missed the point and I think you are doing that deliberately.

Here it is again: You accept that there is such things as dead faith and living faith.
The only faith that leads to eternal life is living faith.
Living faith is defined as the faith that transforms a mans entire being and he believes in his heart the things concerning Christ and teachings of Christ.
This believing in the heart leads to a changed man who follows the commandments of Christ.

You on the contrary preach that all faith leads to eternal life .. both living and dead.

You dont not explain this critical difference between living and dead faith.
You continually rant on and on about faith is all that is required and faith [living or dead - you make no distinction], leads to a man being eternally saved.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You have missed the point and I think you are doing that deliberately.

Here it is again: You accept that there is such things as dead faith and living faith.
The only faith that leads to eternal life is living faith.
Living faith is defined as the faith that transforms a mans entire being and he believes in his heart the things concerning Christ and ...[text shortened]... ired and faith [living or dead - you make no distinction], leads to a man being eternally saved.

You have missed the point and I think you are doing that deliberately.

Here it is again: You accept that there is such things as dead faith and living faith.
The only faith that leads to eternal life is living faith.
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In the New Testament James speaks of faith that is dead.

In the Old Testament I think the word to be used is "presumption". Some things the children of Israel did was not in true faith. They did it presumptuously.

Presumption can be very inactive or very busy and active. But it is not true faith.
For instance, what the Hebrews did in going up to Ai after they had rejected the good report of Caleb and Joshua.

Many other instances of presumption instead of faith are seen in the Bible.


Living faith is defined as the faith that transforms a mans entire being and he believes in his heart the things concerning Christ and teachings of Christ.
This believing in the heart leads to a changed man who follows the commandments of Christ.
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I don't have any contrary statement about that.

Because God's enemy is very subtle, some believers were neglecting an obedient life. to counteract this problem James speaks of a living faith which manifests itself in obedience.

Without such evidence he says the faith is dead. And he asks if such faith can SAVE one? And rightly he does this.

Of course there is in the New Testament the being SAVED which is not related to eternal redemption but to SANCTIFICATION.

I need still to be SAVED from anxiety in my soul.
I need still to be SAVED from grumbling, covetousness, greed, etc.

In short the SOUL still needs transformation in the process of dispositional sanctification. James asks - "Will your passive apathetic faith SAVE you?" He says this is dead faith which will not save in the sense as will leave the soul of the Christian untransformed, unsanctified, unconformed to Christ.


So I repeat what you called deliberate missing of some point.

Salvation pertains to the whole being - spirit and soul and body .
All James is saying in his epistle is that "You disobedient believers have a dead faith that will be of no use in the salvation of your SOUL."

I didn't miss the point.

You on the contrary preach that all faith leads to eternal life .. both living and dead.
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Faith in Jesus Christ does lead to eternal life because God is faithful.

But salvation pertains to past, present, and future.

In my spirit I have been regenerated. I have been saved. I have received eternal life.

In my soul I am presently being saved through transformation and sanctification.
IE. "The mind set on the flesh is death, the mind set on the spirit is [divine] life and peace." (Rom. 8:6)

The mind is a part of the SOUL. And as I SET the mind on my regenerated spirit, eternal life spreads its influence over my SOUL in this life.

As to the future I await transfiguration of my body. Then the mortal is SWALLOWED UP by this divine and eternal life.

" ... what is mortal may be swallowed up by [divine] life." ( 2 Cor. 4:4b)

So we can see eternal life implanted into the spirit as to the past,
spreading out to the soul with the mind as an ongoing process,
eventually swallowing up the body as to the future resurrection, rapture, and transfiguration.

Preserved complete - spirit and soul and body.

James's warnings and exhortation are mainly about the stage of ongoing spread of life and peace to the soul. The mind is the leading part of the soul. And the soul must become obedient for subjective dispositional sanctification.

James is not speaking to those who have not received eternal life in ANY sense, because he refers to himself and his audience as God's firstfruits of His creatures who were "BROUGHT ... FORTH" - meaning regenerated by God.

" He brought us forth by the word of truth, purposing that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures." (James 1:18)

Therefore the warning that faith without works is dead and cannot save, is spoken to those who have already been brought forth in the new birth by God. They are Christians.

That is all the time I have right now.