1. Maryland
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    13 Jun '16 10:29
    Believers say they have faith. Is it not more accurate to say they have hope?
  2. SubscriberFMF
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    13 Jun '16 11:021 edit
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Believers say they have faith. Is it not more accurate to say they have hope?
    Either way, there are many Christians who believe that if they just think certain things, they will become immortal. Whether they really think it's true or if they simply hope that it is ~ depends on the person, I suppose.

    Something concrete out of all this believing, hoping and thinking is that it is certainly true that it gives enormous numbers of people a sense of purpose and perhaps takes the edge off the inevitability of death.

    "Faith/Hope" may well deal with illusions and delusions (believers are pointedly unable to offer any convincing evidence to non-believers that it doesn't) but it nevertheless serves a purpose ~ and has impacts on people's lives ~ in a very real way.
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    13 Jun '16 11:26
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Believers say they have faith. Is it not more accurate to say they have hope?
    Faith implies hope. However Christians shy away from using the word hope since it means that it is something with less than 100% certainty. Also they like claiming that they already have eternal life, rather than using the more accurate statement per all the Apostles which is that they have a hope of eternal life.
  4. SubscriberSuzianne
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    13 Jun '16 12:17
    Originally posted by FMF
    Either way, there are many Christians who believe that if they just [b]think certain things, they will become immortal. Whether they really think it's true or if they simply hope that it is ~ depends on the person, I suppose.

    Something concrete out of all this believing, hoping and thinking is that it is certainly true that it gives enormous numbers of p ...[text shortened]... ) but it nevertheless serves a purpose ~ and has impacts on people's lives ~ in a very real way.[/b]
    Didn't your mother ever warn you that if you make that face too much that it might freeze that way?
  5. SubscriberSuzianne
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    13 Jun '16 12:19
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Faith implies hope. However Christians shy away from using the word hope since it means that it is something with less than 100% certainty. Also they like claiming that they already have eternal life, rather than using the more accurate statement per all the Apostles which is that they have a hope of eternal life.
    Do you also just hope that God keeps His promises, or do you know that He keeps His promises? Go on, tell the truth now... you can do it...
  6. SubscriberSuzianne
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    13 Jun '16 12:21
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Believers say they have faith. Is it not more accurate to say they have hope?
    No.
  7. Standard membersonshiponline
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    13 Jun '16 12:261 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    Either way, there are many Christians who believe that if they just [b]think certain things, they will become immortal. Whether they really think it's true or if they simply hope that it is ~ depends on the person, I suppose.

    Something concrete out of all this believing, hoping and thinking is that it is certainly true that it gives enormous numbers of p ...[text shortened]... ) but it nevertheless serves a purpose ~ and has impacts on people's lives ~ in a very real way.[/b]
    Either way, there are many Christians who believe that if they just think certain things, they will become immortal.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Who ?
    Can you quote them ?

    IE. something like "Well, if I just THINK this or that thing, why, I will be immortal."


    Whether they really think it's true or if they simply hope that it is ~ depends on the person, I suppose.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now I, and perhaps some others, have pointed out Romans 10:8-11 as Paul's teaching on who shall be saved because of confessing and believing.

    What you seem not to grasp (or willfully ignore) is that it is God's FAITHFULNESS which is doing the saving.

    Eternal life is from God;s faithfulness + our faith.

    I have further issues with your phrase "they will be immortal". I am not sure that that is representative of the New Testament - you will be immortal.

    No, eternal life is eternal life. However you will NOT remain the same. In receiving eternal life the immortal Jesus Christ is the image into which you will and must be conformed.

    Your caricature "They think they will be immortal" is something of your spin.
    You might sometime try to speak about biblical issues with biblical phrases.

    We don't use Romans 10:9-11 as:

    1.) The power of positive thinking.
    2.) A self powered road to "immortality" in your sense.
  8. Standard membersonshiponline
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    13 Jun '16 12:273 edits

    Something concrete out of all this believing, hoping and thinking is that it is certainly true that it gives enormous numbers of people a sense of purpose and perhaps takes the edge off the inevitability of death.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That section, Romans 10:9-11 concludes this way -

    "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all and rich to all who call upon Him." (v.12)


    This does not mean the Lord is just RICH only after dying.
    This is the comfort of spending the Lord's riches any day, every day.

    Yes, calling and believing lead to being saved because God is FAITHFUL. But the comfort of calling to contact God is available throughout one's life all the time.

    He is a great comfort in situations quite having nothing immediately to do with physical death. I call, and He is rich all the time.


    "Faith/Hope" may well deal with illusions and delusions (believers are pointedly unable to offer any convincing evidence to non-believers that it doesn't) but it nevertheless serves a purpose ~ and has impacts on people's lives ~ in a very real way.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    If that was the case then no non-believers would ever become believers.
    What you are really saying is illogical. You're implying that Christians are never former unbelievers.

    Now wishful thinking is comforting. But that's baloney.
    I know thousands of Christians. Most of them were formerly unbelievers. They got convinced to avail themselves of God's faithfulness.

    Now some may not know exactly when they made that turn, being young, or being rather a gradual matter. But Christians are no born into the world naturally.
  9. SubscriberFMF
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    13 Jun '16 12:29
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Didn't your mother ever warn you that if you make that face too much that it might freeze that way?
    I think what I said was an honest and fair statement by a non-believer. I don't really know why you are being snide. If you can't cope with ideas you don't agree with, perhaps you should discuss spirituality on a Christians-only forum.
  10. SubscriberFMF
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    13 Jun '16 12:33
    FMF: many Christians who believe that if they just think certain things, they will become immortal.

    Originally posted by sonship
    Who ?
    Can you quote them ?
    You think Jesus Christ died to "forgive your sins" and "save" you, don't you? You think, as a result, you will have everlasting life, right? You think the Bible represents the true revelation of your God figure?
  11. SubscriberFMF
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    13 Jun '16 12:391 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    If that was the case then no non-believers would ever become believers.
    What you are really saying is illogical. You're implying that Christians are never former unbelievers.
    Well, sorry. I wasn't clear. That's not how I meant it. Of course non-believers can become believers. Just as believers can become non-believers.

    I probably more had our community here in mind or people who go to their graves as non-believers despite the efforts of those who go to their graves as believers.

    It is my observation that here on this SF, believers are pointedly unable to offer any convincing evidence to the assembled non-believers.

    I don't think either you or, say, robbie carrobie, has ever 'converted' anyone here with your arguments or evidence. If you think you have, fair enough.
  12. SubscriberFMF
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    13 Jun '16 12:44
    Originally posted by sonship
    Now wishful thinking is comforting. But that's baloney. I know thousands of Christians. Most of them were formerly unbelievers. They got convinced to avail themselves of God's faithfulness.
    Well I'm speaking as a non-believer, sonship, obviously, and one that has always lived among Christians, so you telling me the view I laid out in my response to the OP is "baloney" doesn't really mean anything to me. I know for a fact that countless Christians draw comfort and a sense of purpose from their beliefs and this is demonstrably true regardless of whether you or I believe they are "availing themselves of God's faithfulness".
  13. Standard memberKellyJay
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    13 Jun '16 12:47
    Originally posted by 667joe
    Believers say they have faith. Is it not more accurate to say they have hope?
    You are kind of right, for one gives us the other it is even spelled out as such in scripture.

    Galatians 5:5
    For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope.
  14. Standard memberKellyJay
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    13 Jun '16 13:02
    Originally posted by sonship
    [b] Either way, there are many Christians who believe that if they just think certain things, they will become immortal.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Who ?
    Can you quote them ?

    IE. something like "Well, if I just THINK this or that thing, why, I will be immortal."


    Wheth ...[text shortened]...

    1.) The power of positive thinking.
    2.) A self powered road to "immortality" in your sense.
    Christians are not among those who just think they are some thing so they can enter into
    heaven, as some believe they can just think they are something just to enter into a bath
    room. That kind of thought verses reality only works between the ears of those who want
    it to be true even if it flies in the face of reality.

    We have a hope and it isn't in positive thinking, it is in Christ and the work He has done
    and the presence of God in the Holy Spirit in our lives now that matters. As the Holy Spirit
    teaches us who God is, and how we should be conducting ourselves in this world. We
    grow in grace and knowledge, if you do not have the Spirit of God, you do NOT belong to
    God.

    John 16:15
    All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    John 14:26
    But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

    Romans 8:9
    You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

    2 Peter 3:18
    But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
  15. SubscriberSuzianne
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    13 Jun '16 13:081 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    I think what I said was an honest and fair statement by a non-believer. I don't really know why you are being snide. If you can't cope with ideas you don't agree with, perhaps you should discuss spirituality on a Christians-only forum.
    Au contraire. It is you who "cannot cope with ideas you can't agree with". Your sneering comes through loud and clear. Honest and fair? Sorry, that didn't get past the sneer on your face as you said it. Perhaps you should take your hand-wringing and your derision to an atheist-only forum where you'll be among "like minds", if you can't cope with people responding to your derisive posturing.
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