1. Standard memberRajk999
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    17 Jun '13 16:22
    Here is a classic example of people taking a phrase out of context and changing the meaning to match some preconceived doctrine.

    Some Christian sects want to prove that good works does not count for anything. The proof they use is :

    1. Righteousness /good works is like filthy rags as stated in Isaiah [used by Divegeester and Hinds]
    2. Christ imputed righteousness into all believers therefore they are righteous nothwithstanding their subsequent sins [used by JosephW]
    3. Believe in Christ and only then you do good works [used by KellyJ]

    I paraphrased so the above are not exact. I will deal with #1 now and the others in other threads. I can show clearly that Isaiah is definitely not advising anyone
    - not to do good works, or that
    - good works is of no value, or that
    - good works does not count in the day of judgment.

    Without even trying to analyse this statement in Isaiah it should be clear to any Bible reader that a life of righteousness and good works is what the entire Bible is about. Every single writer in every age since Adam condemned evil and applauded righteousness. Its only in this age of apostacy did the Christian Church find ways to twist the meaning of the Bible and to preach that 'mouth worship' which is condemned by Christ is the way to eternal life.

    Now the Isaiah passage is making a comparison between two things.
    * What God has done
    * What man can go
    .. stating as well how different the two are. Here it is"

    For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him. Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isa 64:4-6)

    What God has prepared for man [as passage repeated by Christ] ie the beauty and glory of the Kingdom or New Jerusalem [Revelation 21 and 22] in which man will live in bliss, is nothing compared to the paltry duty of man to live in righteousness and do good works as Christ himself instructed us to do.

    Its like a rich uncle gives you a Ferari worth $200,000 and all you need to do is to pay for the legal work to transfer it of $500. [lets say]. What you get in return for your paltry contribution of $500 is a $200,000 Ferari. Your contribution or the cost to you can be justly described as filthy rags or nothing of value. But the $500 transfer fee is still essential nontheless for you to get the Ferari. No transfer fee means no Ferari.

    Furthermore Isaiah himself says in the previous verse to the one with 'filthy rags'... "Isa 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness".

    God meets those that worketh righteousness .. END OF STORY.
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    17 Jun '13 17:49
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Here is a classic example of people taking a phrase out of context and changing the meaning to match some preconceived doctrine.

    Some Christian sects want to prove that good works does not count for anything. The proof they use is :

    1. Righteousness /good works is like filthy rags as stated in Isaiah [used by Divegeester and Hinds]
    2. Christ imputed r ...[text shortened]... d worketh righteousness".

    God meets those that worketh righteousness .. END OF STORY.
    They are truly reprehensible and have missed the entire point of the gospels.
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    17 Jun '13 23:00
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    They are truly reprehensible and have missed the entire point of the gospels.
    Thank you.

    I have never ever said that Christians should not do good works. What i do say and stand by it 100% is that salvation itself is free (in terms of works) because Christ paid the price. Discipleship can cost you everything however. These two aspects of the normal Christian life should not be confused or you end up trying to earn your salvation and calling people reprehensible just because they disagree with you.
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    18 Jun '13 09:461 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Thank you.

    I have never ever said that Christians should not do good works. What i do say and stand by it 100% is that salvation itself is free (in terms of works) because Christ paid the price. Discipleship can cost you everything however. These two aspects of the normal Christian life should not be confused or you end up trying to earn your salvation and calling people reprehensible just because they disagree with you.
    what are these works that you refer to? what about the work of teaching and preaching to others concerning Gods Kingdom, Christ termed it, the great harvest.
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    18 Jun '13 13:25
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    what are these works that you refer to? what about the work of teaching and preaching to others concerning Gods Kingdom, Christ termed it, the great harvest.
    Exactly.
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    18 Jun '13 13:27
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    what are these works that you refer to? what about the work of teaching and preaching to others concerning Gods Kingdom, Christ termed it, the great harvest.
    Yes, that could be an example of a good work
  7. Standard memberKellyJay
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    18 Jun '13 13:32
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Here is a classic example of people taking a phrase out of context and changing the meaning to match some preconceived doctrine.

    Some Christian sects want to prove that good works does not count for anything. The proof they use is :

    1. Righteousness /good works is like filthy rags as stated in Isaiah [used by Divegeester and Hinds]
    2. Christ imputed r ...[text shortened]... d worketh righteousness".

    God meets those that worketh righteousness .. END OF STORY.
    You read what you want to see, if you think that what I have said.
    You are so mistaken it is sad.
    I've said that we are not saved by works but by God grace through
    Jesus Christ, and after that we will do good works. We are NOT saved
    by our works least anyone can boast.
    Stop misrepresenting what others say.
    Kelly
  8. Standard memberRajk999
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    18 Jun '13 14:54
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    You read what you want to see, if you think that what I have said.
    You are so mistaken it is sad.
    I've said that we are not saved by works but by God grace through
    Jesus Christ, and after that we will do good works. We are NOT saved
    by our works least anyone can boast.
    Stop misrepresenting what others say.
    Kelly
    Ok I take your point and Dive's which appear to be along the same lines. I will address this in another thread. What is your view of the Isaiah's quote about 'filthy rags'. Is it your view that he is stating that righteousness and good works is filthy rags and should not be pursued.
  9. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Jun '13 16:202 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    what are these works that you refer to? what about the work of teaching and preaching to others concerning Gods Kingdom, Christ termed it, the great harvest.
    What about it?

    I suspect you'd find it disappointing if, after doing all these 'works' and slaving away at your salvation, when at judgement, Christ says to you "I never knew you" because you failed to follow His commandment to show love for your Christian brothers.

    In for a penny, in for a pound, I say. Either follow ALL His commandments, or perhaps just shut up boasting about the ONE you do manage.

    Same goes for Rajk, by the way.
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    18 Jun '13 16:28
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    What about it?

    I suspect you'd find it disappointing if, after doing all these 'works' and slaving away at your salvation, when at judgement, Christ says to you "I never knew you" because you failed to follow His commandment to show love for your Christian brothers.

    In for a penny, in for a pound, I say. Either follow ALL His commandments, or perhaps just shut up boasting about the ONE you do manage.

    Same goes for Rajk, by the way.
  11. Standard memberKellyJay
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    18 Jun '13 22:50
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Ok I take your point and Dive's which appear to be along the same lines. I will address this in another thread. What is your view of the Isaiah's quote about 'filthy rags'. Is it your view that he is stating that righteousness and good works is filthy rags and should not be pursued.
    You have never seen me say good works should not be done! I believe that
    our righteousness before God is as filthy rags, at our best we are that so
    without God's grace our righteousness will avail us nothing before God. So
    we need God's grace and we need to obey Him once saved where we will do
    good works.
    Kelly
  12. Standard memberKellyJay
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    18 Jun '13 22:52
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Ok I take your point and Dive's which appear to be along the same lines. I will address this in another thread. What is your view of the Isaiah's quote about 'filthy rags'. Is it your view that he is stating that righteousness and good works is filthy rags and should not be pursued.
    Thank you Rajk999.
    Kelly
  13. Standard memberRajk999
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    18 Jun '13 23:18
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    You have never seen me say good works should not be done! I believe that
    our righteousness before God is as filthy rags, at our best we are that so
    without God's grace our righteousness will avail us nothing before God. So
    we need God's grace and we need to obey Him once saved where we will do
    good works.
    Kelly
    Good, we are in fact saying the same things but in different ways. I posted another thread on Grace. I would be interested in your comments.
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    19 Jun '13 04:05
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    what are these works that you refer to? what about the work of teaching and preaching to others concerning Gods Kingdom, Christ termed it, the great harvest.
    My good work is insulting those that disagree with me, like atheists, evilutionists, and Jehovah's Witnesses.

    The Instructor
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