1. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    12 Mar '12 07:392 edits
    What does fine tuning of the universe tell us about God's purpose?

    http://www.2001principle.net/2005.htm

    http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/designun.html

    Did Humans create the universe for themselves?

    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4323661/the_anthropic_principle_fine_tuning_of_the_universe_michael_strauss_phd/
  2. Joined
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    12 Mar '12 11:30
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    What does fine tuning of the universe tell us about God's purpose?
    You assume things in your question that are not in evidence.

    You assume that the universe is fine tuned...
    To which I ask...
    Fine tuned for what?
    And
    What evidence do you have to support the universe being fine tuned for whatever it is you think it's fine tuned for?

    And secondly...

    You assume that a god exists to do the alleged 'fine tuning'...
    To which I ask...
    What evidence do you have that ANY god exists?
    What evidence do you have that YOUR god exists?
    What evidence do you have that if the universe was fine tuned for something that it was not only a god but your god that did it?
    And finally...
    If a god did fine tune the universe for something... How can you possibly claim to know what the god was intending to fine tune
    the universe for?
    How can you possibly claim to know the mind and intent of a being that (you claim) fine tuned the universe?


    If you claim the universe was 'fine tuned' for life, for us, then I would respond by saying that greater than 99.99999999999999999%
    of the universe is totally inhospitable to life (at least any life that looks like life on earth). And that earth is ok for the life that lives on it
    because the life that lives on it is both altering the conditions on the earth to suite it but also evolving and has evolved to be optimised
    FOR the conditions on earth. Not the other way around.
  3. Joined
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    12 Mar '12 13:14
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    What does fine tuning of the universe tell us about God's purpose?

    http://www.2001principle.net/2005.htm

    http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/designun.html

    Did Humans create the universe for themselves?

    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4323661/the_anthropic_principle_fine_tuning_of_the_universe_michael_strauss_phd/
    I am currently reading The Goldilocks Enigma by Paul Davies (one of the scientists quoted in the first link)

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Goldilocks-Enigma-Universe-Right/dp/B002ECEU3U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331556060&sr=8-1

    It's very good and covers all this sort of thing. It has a chapter going into various ideas including dieties but I don't think he finds them particularly satisfactory as explanations.

    I don't think the fine-tuning can be taken as evidence for anything really without more information on the following:
    - Is the fine-tuning throughout the universe or are there pockets where the parameters are different?
    - Might there be other possible combinations of laws and constants that would also allow life?
    - Could multiple universes exist, each with different laws and constants?

    And taking this apparant fine-tuning as evidence for one particular deity is just silly.

    --- Penguin.
  4. Standard memberRJHinds
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    12 Mar '12 13:383 edits
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    You assume things in your question that are not in evidence.

    You assume that the universe is fine tuned...
    To which I ask...
    Fine tuned for what?
    And
    What evidence do you have to support the universe being fine tuned for whatever it is you think it's fine tuned for?

    And secondly...

    You assume that a god exists to do the alleged 'fine tuning ng and has evolved to be optimised
    FOR the conditions on earth. Not the other way around.
    The reason I know God is the intelligence behind it rather than man traveling
    back in time and creating it, is there has to be a beginning point and that
    beginning point requires an intelligent being that existed before the beginning
    point. The God of the Holy Bible is the only intelligent being needing no
    beginning point for His existence. The Holy Bible also tells us His purpose for
    creating the universe in the Holy Bible. The name He tells Moses to call Him, in
    Hebrew, according to Hebrew scholars, indicates by it's meaning that He is the
    self-existing One. Only the God of the Holy Bible has claimed to be able to tell
    the end from the beginning. No god in any other religious writings has made
    this claim. God fine tuned one place on Earth that was perfect for mankind, but
    that place (the Garden of Eden) was taken away from man because of his
    disobedience. We now live on an earth that is no longer perfect for our survival,
    but it is fine tuned enough that we can survive for a limited time with difficulty.
    God reveals all this to us in a limited way through the Holy Bible. Scientists are
    gradually discovering what God told man long ago. And God answers all your
    questions in the Holy Bible. That is my main proof that God created this earth
    for Man. And he is going to fine tune a new Earth for man. For before Christ
    departed this Earth, He told His disciples,

    “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My
    Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I
    go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will
    come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
    And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
    (John 14:1-4 NKJV)
  5. Joined
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    12 Mar '12 23:161 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    The reason I know God is the intelligence behind it rather than man travelling
    back in time and creating it, is there has to be a beginning point and that
    beginning point requires an intelligent being that existed before the beginning
    point. The God of the Holy Bible is the only intelligent being needing no
    beginning point for His existence. The Holy am, there you may be also.
    And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
    (John 14:1-4 NKJV)
    "The reason I know God is the intelligence behind it rather than man travelling
    back in time and creating it...
    "


    Ok I have to stop you there...

    First this is a false dichotomy...
    god creating the universe or humans going back in time and creating it are far from being the only options.

    And second...
    You can't possibly 'know' this by any reasonable definition of the word 'know' that I will accept.
    You might well believe it, but knowledge requires as a prerequisite the ability to objectively prove that knowledge.
    You must have evidence, and reasonable justification for something you claim as knowledge.
    If you don't have such proof or evidence then you can't claim to know something. You can believe it, to varying degrees of
    strength and justification, but you can't justifiably claim to know it.

    Anyhow carrying on...

    "The reason I know God is the intelligence behind it rather than man travelling
    back in time and creating it, is there has to be a beginning point and that
    beginning point requires an intelligent being that existed before the beginning
    point.
    "


    Why must there be a beginning point?
    If there must be a beginning point why must there be an intelligence involved?
    Why does that intelligence not need a beginning?

    This is the argument of first cause (or it's cousin, "something can't come from nothing" ) it runs something like this...


    Every effect has (indeed must have) a cause.
    And every cause is the effect of some previous cause.
    And every effect is the cause of some subsequent effect.
    Thus there is an unbroken chain of cause and effect going back in time.
    The universe has a beginning (or must have a beginning, depending on the person making the argument)
    THUS there must be a FIRST CAUSE that was not caused by anything else.
    This first cause must be god... because I say so...


    My response to which is to say that you are making assumptions that are not justified or in evidence.

    For example, you are assuming that every effect must have a cause.
    This is not an unreasonable assumption for everyday life... but to prove it true you can't just say "well I have never seen
    a causeless effect therefore it's impossible" you have to prove that it is in fact impossible for any effect to occur without a cause.
    Which is for all practical intents and purposes impossible.
    Worse, in reality, quantum physics does include effects that have no (that we can determine) cause.
    So called 'virtual' particles appearing out of nowhere and then vanishing again, completely without any known or observable cause.
    So while it's not proof that you can have an effect without a cause, as we can't rule out a cause we can't detect, it is evidence pointing
    in that direction that makes it impossible to legitimately claim that it is impossible to have an effect without a cause.

    Also, you are assuming that the universe has a beginning, and thus a first cause.
    Which is not proven and not the view of most, if any, of the current contender models for replacing the standard model of physics.
    Plus saying that everything must have a cause, except god, needs justification. You can't just assert it.
    Without proof that god doesn't need a cause (good luck with that) then I see no reason to treat god any differently from the rest of the universe
    and so if god doesn't need a cause then why should the universe?

    And finally you offer nothing to prove that... even IF the universe did have to have a first cause and the even IF that cause must be intelligent and
    even IF that intelligence must be a god... that that god is your god, the god of the bible, and not any other possible god.


    "The God of the Holy Bible is the only intelligent being needing no
    beginning point for His existence.
    "


    God has no detectable properties of any kind. and is indistinguishable from non-existence.
    How can you possibly make knowledge claims about the properties of an undetectable and non-existent being?
    What evidence can you (do you) have that could possibly prove that god exists? Let alone prove that god doesn't need a beginning and is the
    only intelligent being who doesn't need a beginning?


    "The Holy Bible also tells us His purpose for creating the universe in the Holy Bible.
    The name He tells Moses to call Him, in Hebrew, according to Hebrew scholars, indicates
    by it's meaning that He is the self-existing One.
    "


    I don't care what it says in the bible, or any holy book.
    As you well know that bible does not and cannot be considered evidence of the existence or properties of a god or gods or any kind of supernatural.
    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof... The bible isn't even particularly reliable for ordinary claims.


    "Only the God of the Holy Bible has claimed to be able to tell
    the end from the beginning. No god in any other religious writings has made
    this claim.
    "


    Not having read every religious writing and god claim I can't comment on whether or not any other god has made that specific claim.
    But again. I don't care what it says in the bible and never will.
    You want to demonstrate god you need evidence, you need proof.
    The writings in an old book are nowhere close to cutting it.


    "God fine tuned one place on Earth that was perfect for mankind, but
    that place (the Garden of Eden) was taken away from man because of his
    disobedience. We now live on an earth that is no longer perfect for our survival,
    but it is fine tuned enough that we can survive for a limited time with difficulty.
    God reveals all this to us in a limited way through the Holy Bible.
    "


    Again, bible nonsense for which you have no proof, is in contradiction to all available evidence and known laws of physics.
    about which I DON'T CARE BECAUSE IT ISN'T PROOF OR EVIDENCE OF ANYTHING.


    "Scientists are gradually discovering what God told man long ago."

    Bull excrement.
    Scientists are doing nothing of the sort. this is just a bare faced flat out lie.


    "And God answers all your questions in the Holy Bible."

    Bull, and as I have said before "god did it" doesn't explain ANYTHING.
    An explanation MUST rely on things we already understand.
    If I were to explain to you why a ball bounces a certain hight after dropping onto a stone floor by saying it did it because of "benaflflahanahan",
    You would (assuming you don't back away and call for the men in white suit's) then ask me what the hell benaflflahanahan was or meant.
    My initial 'explanation' was useless because benaflflahanahan means nothing to you and must itself be explained.
    I simply moved the mystery that needed explaining from one thing to something else.

    Similarly if you say "god did it" you haven't explained anything because neither you, I nor anyone else understands god. Or could possibly
    understand god. (who is inexplicable by definition)


    "That is my main proof that God created this earth for Man."

    Then you have no proof, you don't even have evidence, you are just asserting stuff that contradicts ALL available evidence.
    put simply...

    You are wrong.


    "And he is going to fine tune a new Earth for man. For before Christ
    departed this Earth, He told His disciples,

    “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My
    Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I
    go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will
    come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
    And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
    (John 14:1-4 NKJV)
    "



    More bible nonsense I don't care about.
  6. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    13 Mar '12 00:47
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    [b]"The reason I know God is the intelligence behind it rather than man travelling
    back in time and creating it...
    "


    Ok I have to stop you there...

    First this is a false dichotomy...
    god creating the universe or humans going back in time and creating it are far from being the only options.

    And second...
    You can't possibly 'know' t ...[text shortened]... nonsense I don't care about.[/b]
    There is not much sense in trying to explain the logic since you don't care to
    use logic anyway.
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    13 Mar '12 00:49
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    You assume things in your question that are not in evidence.

    You assume that the universe is fine tuned...
    To which I ask...
    Fine tuned for what?
    Yes, you claim that there is no ryhme or reason or order to it all, then you cling to science to attack the religion that tells you that it was all fine tuned and can be made sense of.
  8. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    13 Mar '12 03:48
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    What does fine tuning of the universe tell us about God's purpose?

    http://www.2001principle.net/2005.htm

    http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/designun.html

    Did Humans create the universe for themselves?

    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4323661/the_anthropic_principle_fine_tuning_of_the_universe_michael_strauss_phd/
    'Did humans create the universe?'
    IMO, yes, well actually they co-created it, it's just the amnesia that is putting up a barrier between us and "God" , (of course by now you should know that I am not referring to the God of the bible)
  9. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    13 Mar '12 03:561 edit
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    You assume things in your question that are not in evidence.

    You assume that the universe is fine tuned...
    To which I ask...
    Fine tuned for what?
    And
    What evidence do you have to support the universe being fine tuned for whatever it is you think it's fine tuned for?

    And secondly...

    You assume that a god exists to do the alleged 'fine tuning ng and has evolved to be optimised
    FOR the conditions on earth. Not the other way around.
    the universe is teaming with "life", ( it's life,Jim, but not as we know it), it's just that SETI and others are looking in the wrong direction.

    If you turn your attention inwards, (takes some practice, but once you learn how to ride a bike...), then you will find that life is not bound by physical properties,including time, space and some other pre-conceived notions.

    You want to find universal ,intelligent life in the universe? Start by looking at Earth.
    They are here. Ready to help, but not be babysitters, There are simply some things that we need to find out on our own before we can move on.

    However way you look at it, "physical life", (entities that are extra-dimensional, but also have the power to take on suitable (physical,semi-physical )forms to help with (true) evolution, can be found.

    One simple technique is to develop your peripheral vision. There is more to life than meets the rods (of the eye) ,😀
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    13 Mar '12 06:00
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    the universe is teaming with "life",
    Is it?
  11. Standard memberRJHinds
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    13 Mar '12 09:09
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    the universe is teaming with "life", ( it's life,Jim, but not as we know it), it's just that SETI and others are looking in the wrong direction.

    If you turn your attention inwards, (takes some practice, but once you learn how to ride a bike...), then you will find that life is not bound by physical properties,including time, space and some other pre ...[text shortened]... develop your peripheral vision. There is more to life than meets the rods (of the eye) ,😀
    Just more science fiction.
  12. Joined
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    13 Mar '12 11:03
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    [b]"The reason I know God is the intelligence behind it rather than man travelling
    back in time and creating it...
    "


    Ok I have to stop you there...

    First this is a false dichotomy...
    god creating the universe or humans going back in time and creating it are far from being the only options.

    And second...
    You can't possibly 'know' t ...[text shortened]... nonsense I don't care about.[/b]
    Well I didn't really know where to start, Thanks GoogleFudge for pretty much saying what I would have wasted hours on if I had started.

    Anyone fancy addressing Googlefudge's points?

    --- Penguin.
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    13 Mar '12 11:54
    Originally posted by Penguin
    Well I didn't really know where to start, Thanks GoogleFudge for pretty much saying what I would have wasted hours on if I had started.

    Anyone fancy addressing Googlefudge's points?

    --- Penguin.
    RJH will not.

    GoogleFudge gave an excellent post that shows all that is wrong with RJH's stupid claims and all RJH can do is respond with yet more crap with “There is not much sense in trying to explain the logic...” ( what logic! RJH is talking CRAP not 'logic' ! ) and “Just more science fiction. " 😛
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    13 Mar '12 12:231 edit
    Originally posted by humy
    RJH will not.

    GoogleFudge gave an excellent post that shows all that is wrong with RJH's stupid claims and all RJH can do is respond with yet more crap with “There is not much sense in trying to explain the logic...” ( what logic! RJH is talking CRAP not 'logic' ! ) and “Just more science fiction. " 😛
    RJ's 'just more science fiction' comment was in response to Karoly Aczel's post. I find it interesting that RJ seems to think that Karoly's mystical woo woo fantasy is actually science fiction.

    --- Penguin.
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    13 Mar '12 12:30
    Originally posted by Penguin
    RJ's 'just more science fiction' comment was in response to Karoly Aczel's post. I find it interesting that RJ seems to think that Karoly's mystical woo woo fantasy is actually science fiction.

    --- Penguin.
    I would class it more as fantasy than science fiction.
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