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    07 May '14 05:25
    Hello All Others,
    Is this the 1st prophecy including Christ?

    King James Version
    ==============
    Genesis 3: 15
    And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
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    07 May '14 05:46
    Originally posted by KingOnPoint
    Hello All Others,
    Is this the 1st prophecy including Christ?

    King James Version
    ==============
    Genesis 3: 15
    And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
    How do you see it as such?
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    07 May '14 10:064 edits
    DiveGeester,
    The last part of the verse, "and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

    Perhaps, "her seed" is referring to Christ, the human side son of Eve;
    and
    perhaps, "thy seed" is referring to the people who crucified Christ;
    or
    perhaps, "thy seed" might be referring to the spiritual children of Satan.

    and perhaps, "it shall bruise thy head" is talking about Christ ["it" may be a single seed] figuratively hurting Satan around the time of the sacrifice of Christ at the crucifixion.

    and perhaps, "thou shalt bruise his heel," is Satan figuratively hurting the human body of Christ around the time of the sacrifice of Christ at the crucifixion.

    I would not guess that Eve's offspring would actually step on a live serpent's head to stomp on it.

    King James Version
    ==============
    Genesis 3: 15
    And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
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    07 May '14 10:14
    Originally posted by KingOnPoint
    DiveGeester,
    The last part of the verse, "and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

    Perhaps, "seed" is Christ the human side son of Eve;

    and perhaps, "it shall bruise thy head" is talking about Christ figuratively hurting Satan around the time of the sacrifice of Christ's human body at the crucifixion.

    and perhaps ...[text shortened]... an, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
    Seed is simply a figurative term for progeny, for example,

    (Deuteronomy 1:8) to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give it to them and their seed after them.

    (2 Kings 17:20) Consequently Jehovah rejected all the seed of Israel and kept afflicting them and giving them into the hand of pillagers.

    (Galatians 3:16) Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed.
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    07 May '14 10:19
    Robbie,
    Please reread my post above yours. . .I changed part of it.
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    07 May '14 10:322 edits
    Originally posted by KingOnPoint
    Robbie,
    Please reread my post above yours. . .I changed part of it.
    yes but it doesn't change the validity of my statement, seed is a metaphor for progeny. There are two seeds mentioned here, the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. Now as the statement is prophetic it is clear that both the women and the serpent are figurative, after all a literal serpents offspring cannot harm the Christ. So we have identified the serpent, its a reference to Satan.

    we know this from the book of revelation

    (Revelation 12:9) So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan

    but what about the woman?
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    08 May '14 12:27
    Originally posted by KingOnPoint
    Hello All Others,
    Is this the 1st prophecy including Christ?

    King James Version
    ==============
    Genesis 3: 15
    And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
    Great subject KOP.

    I think this is the first prophecy concerning Christ, the Son of God.
    It is speaking one only of the individual Jesus Christ the Son of God.
    But it extends to speak of the victory of Christ dispensed into a group of His believers to corporately also overcome the enemy of God.


    It is possible that Eve thought the birth of Cain was the fulfillment of the prophecy. If so she was sorely disappointed.
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    08 May '14 12:443 edits
    ok continuing on my friends, we know that the prophecy has at least six main elements. The women, the seed of the woman, the serpent, the seed of the serpent and two outcomes, a temporary and non fatal wound in the heel and a fatal wound to the head.

    we have already established that the serpent figuratively speaking is Satan the devil, but what about the woman?

    again we get the answer from the book of Revelation.

    (Revelation 12:1, 2) And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars, and she was pregnant. And she cries out in her pains and in her agony to give birth.

    who is this mysterious woman, Paul tells us.

    (Galatians 4:26) But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

    What does she symbolize? In the inspired prophecies, women at times represent organizations “married” to outstanding personalities. In the Hebrew Scriptures, Israel was spoken of as a wife of Jehovah God. (Jeremiah 3:14) In the Greek Scriptures, the congregation of anointed Christians is spoken of as Christ’s bride. (Revelation 21:9-14)

    The women then is representative of Gods heavenly organization of angelic creatures. Thus in the context of the book of Genesis we have in fact two outstanding personalities, Jesus the seed of the woman that is Gods Heavenly organization and Satan and his satanic hordes.

    but what of the bruising on the head and the heel, find out in next weeks exciting episode of timeforchess, with Robbie, your host 😀
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    08 May '14 12:47
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    ok continuing on my friends, we know that the prophecy has at least six main elements. The women, the seed of the woman, the serpent, the seed of the serpent and two outcomes, a temporary and non fatal wound in the heel and a fatal wound to the head.

    we have already established that the serpent figuratively speaking is Satan the devil, but what ab ...[text shortened]... esus a product of the woman that is Gods Heavenly organization and Satan and his satanic hordes.
    The JWs. Its all about the WatchTower 😀

    You are funny Robbie.
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    08 May '14 12:502 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    The JWs. Its all about the WatchTower 😀

    You are funny Robbie.
    I have not mentioned the watchtower magazine, the watchtower Bible and tract society, Jehovah witnesses or anything, if you can comment on the actual scriptures then please do so. They appear to me to be an accurate portrayal of the prophesy and the Bible.
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    08 May '14 12:581 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I have not mentioned the watchtower magazine, the watchtower Bible and tract society, Jehovah witnesses or anything, if you can comment on the actual scriptures then please do so. They appear to me to be an accurate portrayal of the prophesy and the Bible.
    You must think Im stupid. Maybe you are forgetting that I was the first to start this campaign against the JWs some years ago. I have studied your doctrine and I know where you are coming from even before you mention it. Here is the JWs in your post :

    What does she symbolize? In the inspired prophecies, women at times represent organizations “married” to outstanding personalities. In the Hebrew Scriptures, Israel was spoken of as a wife of Jehovah God. (Jeremiah 3:14) In the Greek Scriptures, the congregation of anointed Christians is spoken of as Christ’s bride. (Revelation 21:9-14)

    The women then is representative of Gods heavenly organization of angelic creatures. Thus in the context of the book of Genesis we have in fact two outstanding personalities, Jesus the seed of the woman that is Gods Heavenly organization and Satan and his satanic hordes.


    The JWs believe that Gods organisation is the Watchtower. They are married to Christ. They are the bride of Christ. They have replaced Israel and they are now the spiritual Israel. The congregation of annointed Christians is in your mind the JWs.
    So the first prophecy of Christ in Genesis includes the JWs .. hence the reason why you steer the conversation toward the JWs.
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    08 May '14 13:052 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    You must think Im stupid. Maybe you are forgetting that I was the first to start this campaign against the JWs some years ago. I have studied your doctrine and I know where you are coming from even before you mention it. Here is the JWs in your post :

    [i]What does she symbolize? In the inspired prophecies, women at times represent organizations “married” ...[text shortened]... are now the spiritual Israel. The congregation of annointed Christians is in your mind the JWs.
    No we dont, the watchtower is a magazine, i dont know what you are slobbering about, but i can certainly assure you that we dont believe that the watchtower, which is a magazine is Gods organization. The Watchtower and Bible tract society is simply a legal entity that we use to comply with law and publish literature, its certainly not Gods Heavenly organization. Now if you would like to address the scriptures that were cited please do so, if not then perhaps this is not the thread for you. I will ignore all further references to Jehovahs witness and all further attempts to detract from the theme, for as Jaywill stated, its a fine topic for discussion and I am sure we are all pretty much fed up with people who cannot stay on topic.
  13. Standard membersonship
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    08 May '14 16:125 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    ok continuing on my friends, we know that the prophecy has at least six main elements. The women, the seed of the woman, the serpent, the seed of the serpent and two outcomes, a temporary and non fatal wound in the heel and a fatal wound to the head.

    we have already established that the serpent figuratively speaking is Satan the devil, but what ab ...[text shortened]... and the heel, find out in next weeks exciting episode of timeforchess, with Robbie, your host 😀
    (Revelation 12:1, 2) And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars, and she was pregnant. And she cries out in her pains and in her agony to give birth.

    who is this mysterious woman, Paul tells us.

    (Galatians 4:26) But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

    What does she symbolize?


    She symbolizes ALL the elect of God, all the saved throughout ALL the previous ages up to the end of the last dispensation.

    The sun which covers most of her body stands for the new testament believers of the Christian church.

    The "moon underneath her feet" signifies the saints of the dispensation of the law. The law is a reflection of the perfection of Jesus Christ as the moon reflects the light of the sun, the source of its light.

    The twelve stars which form a crown around her head stand for the believers in the age before the giving of the law of Moses - like Enoch, Enosh, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph. These are the patriarchs preceding the age of the law of Moses.

    So she represents the totality of God's light in mankind - the stars, the sun, the moon. All the saints of God comprise the Universal Bright Woman.


    In the inspired prophecies, women at times represent organizations “married” to outstanding personalities. In the Hebrew Scriptures, Israel was spoken of as a wife of Jehovah God. (Jeremiah 3:14) In the Greek Scriptures, the congregation of anointed Christians is spoken of as Christ’s bride. (Revelation 21:9-14)


    It is true that God's people are spoken of as God's Spouse throughout the Old and New Testaments.

    The vision should remind us of Joseph's vision when he saw that his mother and father and brothers were as the sun, moon, and stars (Genesis 37:5-11). The family of Jacob represented God's elect on the earth at that time. God's revelation and light was with the descendents of Abraham through Isaac and this father there Jacob.

    The twelve stars (11 minus 1) must have stood for Joseph and his 11 brothers. The sun and moon were father Jacob and his wife.

    Since Jacob had more than one wife it is not too clear which was meant. My opinion was that Leah was meant rather than Rachel. Why?

    Jacob married Leah first being deceived by Laban.
    Jacob then married Rachel the woman he really loved seven years latter.
    But in the cave of Machpelah (Genesis 23) he buried his first wife Leah as his forefathers had buried their wives.

    Abraham was buried there with Sarah.
    Isaac was buried there with Rebekah.
    And Jacob buried Leah there instead of Rachel.
    This indicates that Jacob finally believed that the true wife that God had intended for him was Leah, his first wife.


    The women then is representative of Gods heavenly organization of angelic creatures. Thus in the context of the book of Genesis we have in fact two outstanding personalities, Jesus the seed of the woman that is Gods Heavenly organization and Satan and his satanic hordes.


    I don't for a minute think the organization in Brooklyn New York ( unless they have moved by now) is what is intended by the Holy Spirit in Revelation 12.

    You don't like us to mention magazines Awake or Watchtower, so I will respect that. I will try not to mention the name of the organization. But that organization or "Faithful and Prudent Steward" so to speak, cannot be what that woman symbolizes.

    That organization is on the side of the persecuting Dragon to oppose the believers in Jesus.

    The children of the Universal Bright Woman are those " her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus." (v.17)

    That organization rejects the testimony of Jesus outright.

    Furthermore the woman cannot be strictly in heaven because it says that she fled to the wilderness.

    "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days." (v.6)

    The "wilderness" there should not be heaven but on the surface of the earth.
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    08 May '14 16:263 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    [quote] (Revelation 12:1, 2) And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars, and she was pregnant. And she cries out in her pains and in her agony to give birth.

    who is this mysterious woman, Paul tells us.

    (Galatians 4:26) But the Jerusalem above is fre ...[text shortened]... .6)


    The "wilderness" there should not be heaven but on the surface of the earth.[/b]
    She symbolizes ALL the elect of God

    this has no basis in reality and is unsubstantiated with any values other than those which you are willing to impose on the scripture. Furthermore i demonstrated that Biblicaly women are used to represent organizations, e.g.The bride of Christ, The nation of Israel.

    I refuse to speculate about the sun and the moon and stars for it is not the point of this discussion.

    No one has claimed that any organization in Brooklyn or anywhere else on the planet is represented by what is written in revelation chapter 12 and to say so seems to be to be indicative of a kind of lunacy, or at the very least an inability to think rationally for its quite a ludicrous assertion, if i am honest.

    Again no one has said it represents the faithful steward or anything other than Gods heavenly organization, made up of God himself and the angelic creatures. Where you get the idea i have no idea.

    The rest of your post is beneath my dignity to honor with an answer.
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    08 May '14 17:361 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    She symbolizes ALL the elect of God

    this has no basis in reality and is unsubstantiated with any values other than those which you are willing to impose on the scripture. Furthermore i demonstrated that Biblicaly women are used to represent organizations, e.g.The bride of Christ, The nation of Israel.

    I refuse to speculate about the sun and th ...[text shortened]... e idea i have no idea.

    The rest of your post is beneath my dignity to honor with an answer.
    She symbolizes ALL the elect of God

    this has no basis in reality and is unsubstantiated with any values other than those which you are willing to impose on the scripture. Furthermore i demonstrated that Biblicaly women are used to represent organizations, e.g.The bride of Christ, The nation of Israel.


    It has every basis in proper interpretation of the Holy Bible.

    The New Jerusalem is this same woman from another angle.
    And the New Jerusalem contains both the saints of the old covenant and the new covenant. The names of the twelve tribes are on her gates. The names of the twelve apostles are on her foundations. Certainly patriarchs are included in that eternal city as well.

    I am saying that the universal bright woman is also the New Jerusalem.
    It is only that different aspects are represented.
    The woman in Revelation 12 is still prior to the consummation of God's work throughout history. And the New Jerusalem is the same universal gathering of believers after the consummation of His work.

    The Woman of Revelation 12 is also the Women who is the Bride and Wife of the Lamb in Revelation 21 and 22.

    Forget about it representing a cult of Christ denying millennialists attempting to bring people back to the Old Testament by fighting against the incarnation of God in Christ.

    That group of people is on the side of the Dragon and are opposed to Jesus Christ and all that He represents - the union of God and man.

    Oh, they may want a Paradise like Eden in the beginning, but on THEIR terms.


    I refuse to speculate about the sun and the moon and stars for it is not the point of this discussion.


    Then you are glossing over important details. Everything the Bible mentions is significant. Not a word is wasted or there just to take up space.

    If you gloss over the details of the vision assuming they are just pretty ornaments that have little significance, you can forget about getting into a book like Revelation, let alone the whole Bible.

    The stars which form her crown should not be the same stars which the dragon hurls to the earth with its tail. So "stars" there must have another significance.

    Interpreting the Bible with the Bible. the twelve patriarchs are the best choice mentioned so far.

    The saints of God stand in grace.
    The law of Moses is subject to those who stand in salvation through grace.
    That is why she is CLOTHED with the sun and has the moon underneath her feet.

    This moon being underneath her feet does not represent any kind of disrespect. It indicates that the Law of God is not the main matter by which she is justified. Rather the Grace of Christ is her main clothing and the Law as means of justification is subject to her rather then her subjected to the Law. It is seen underneath her feet as she is not justified by law keeping but by the grace of the New Testament.

    The patriarchs though who were of faith and not of law keeping, are exalted though. That is why the stars form a crown. She exalts is exalted with a crown of the patriarchs of faith. The law keepers are not exalted as the patriarchs of faith are.

    The dispensation of the Law is not disrespected for too was a time of God's light on earth. But it is not exalted as the patriarchs of faith before the Law.


    No one has claimed that any organization in Brooklyn or anywhere else on the planet is represented by what is written in revelation chapter 12 and to say so seems to be to be indicative of a kind of lunacy,


    You used the word "organization" before I did.
    The church is not an organization. It is an organic Body.

    If you have dentures your body knows that they are not organically part of your body. They are a foreign element. In the same way "organized organization" of the Christian body is a foreign element to the organic nature of life.

    Yes, there are many organizations called denominations. But those are made and eventually pass away. That is depicted in Revelation 17.

    In Revelation 12 the woman is first SEEN in heaven. This means that her SOURCE is in heaven and spiritual. The vision is seen in heaven from the standpoint of God's purpose. And that is as an organic Body - a Woman not a Babyon of divisions and denominations from which God calls His people to "Come out of her".

    This woman is seen at least four times in the Bible.
    Genesis 3,
    Ephesians 5,
    Revelation 12,
    Revelation 21,22.

    The harlot of Revelation 17 might be considered the negative view of the facade of this woman the corrupted Christiandom. And the woman in Revelation 18 is the city of Rome for the most part.

    There is some overlap because the Harlot is based in Rome. The corrupted Christiandom has its head quarters in Rome. So some overlap between the religious Babylon and the material Babylon occurs there in chapter 18.

    I know this book better than you do.
    I know this book better than your teachers do.
    No brag - just frank fact.


    or at the very least an inability to think rationally for its quite a ludicrous assertion, if i am honest.


    Your shooting at me with no result. No hits.

    Don't take what I wrote if you don't want to.
    It is your loss. But for one who is deceived that the Son of God is Michael the angel I can see why you would be so darkened and confused. They ruined your beliefs. They ruined your ability to see clearly the revelation of the word of God.

    Insult is not meant.
    I'm just telling you the truth.
    Your view has been damaged for ascertaining spiritual things presented in the Bible.


    Again no one has said it represents the faithful steward or anything other than Gods heavenly organization, made up of God himself and the angelic creatures. Where you get the idea i have no idea.

    The rest of your post is beneath my dignity to honor with an answer.


    Your being incensed is the anger of Satan against the Lord Jesus.
    He has filled your mind with rage at the truth.

    I will address my future comments to someone else on this chapter.
    Don't read my comments. They will fill you with more rage against the Lord Jesus.
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