food for thought

Originally posted by OdBod
We really don't know the composition of the universe.Free will may be an illusion.Logic itself cannot be totaly relied on ,consider quantum theory for example.I do not seek to justify freewill and rationality,but do try to understand them recognising my own limitations.You suggest that we are caged in by the limits of physical properties using a materialistic ...[text shortened]... This may not be the case given the emergance of new qualites arising from increasing complexity.

I wanted to say that Fetchmyjunk's post reflected the old deterministic clockwork universe idea, and that science is moving past that view. But you said it first.

Originally posted by OdBod
Free will may be an illusion.

Free will as most people seem to understand it, is incoherent and thus necessarily an illusion.

You suggest that we are caged in by the limits of physical properties using a materialistic view.
I would say that there is a definite dichotomy between totally random and a system that is at least partially deterministic. One must necessarily be the case. That we see patterns at all, suggests things are not totally random. Given that that is the case, were are necessarily 'caged in' by the limits of whatever rules we are governed by, whether physical or otherwise. This is not something that is restricted to a material view. Almost all arguments against materialism are actually dodges that don't work, ie the same problems apply to non-material views but for some reason many people accept the fallacy that once you call something 'supernatural' it doesn't have to be logical.
My own view is that there is nothing wrong with being 'caged in' and the alternative 'total randomness' is worse. Hilariously, many theists argue against evolution on the grounds that they believe it is totally random and they dislike that.

Originally posted by apathist
I wanted to say that Fetchmyjunk's post reflected the old deterministic clockwork universe idea, and that science is moving past that view. But you said it first.

Actually science is currently undecided on the matter. It would certainly appear that if the universe is fully deterministic, we cannot actually make accurate predictions using that determinism.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I don't know about why, but people often try to identify with the Divine in someway and the mistake they make is to ask " who?". Who is god jesus,etc.
I think the question is "what". What are we?

I repeat: to get on the right track of discovering the nature of the universe we need to think in terms of "What", not "Who".

Think about it if you have a minute.