Originally posted by knightmeister
So you do at least except that it's possible for something to exist that is neither caused or random , or to which these words cannot be applied. Interesting........something can exist which is not caused or random. A chink of light appears.
(I'm fully expecting you now to go down the line that says the universe doesn't actually exist now)
Something can not exist in the universe that is neither caused or random.
Whether the word existence even applies to entities not in the universe or whether it applies to the universe as a whole is up for discussion.
I am taking the word universe to include only the sum of all time.
Also I have always maintained (and mentioned it previously) that 'cause' and 'random' apply to events not objects so effectively nothing in the universe exists that is caused or random or for which those words can be applied.
Also remember that laws such as the law of conservation of energy imply that energy itself never leaves or enters the universe but is just reconfigured, so when we say an object exists we are really talking about a particular pattern of energy at a given point in time, and an event is a change in that pattern.
All this should serve to highlight the fact that all the words we are using are really only meaningful for the universe and to try to use them for anything else without redefining them is meaningless.
If multiplication and division are defined on numbers and we all know what it means then we can talk about interesting things like prime numbers etc. If you then ask "is my pet dog prime?" then you would effectively be talking nonsense because your dog is not a number and the word 'prime' is only defined as having meaning for numbers.
What I am trying to articulate is that to even ask the question "does an entity exist 'external' to the universe or 'external' to time" requires the redefinition of the word 'exist' as under our normal understanding of the word it really only has meaning withing the universe.
In fact that problem is the main reason for our constant confusion in the Something from Nothing discussion.