Free will cannot be explained (ultimately)

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am more than happy with the word exact. My reason for using 'general' had to do with the random component.

[b]In any case , what you describe as free will is not the free will we experience. The free will we experience is one that gives us the feeling that we do have two or more very real possible actions that we could do and that it is us that needs ...[text shortened]... s what I call free will. Your repeated insistence that I have 'feelings' otherwise is false.

QUOTE---------------

What I have described allows me, as a meat computer to have two real possible actions presented externally and for the meat computer (me) to make a choice. The fact that the meat computer may be programmed to always make the same choice given the set of initial conditions does not take away the choice. That is what I experience and that is what I call free will. Your repeated insistence that I have 'feelings' otherwise is false. -----whitey

RESPONSE----------------------

So you accept that you are programmed to make the same choice given identical circumstances even though externally there are other options available. Surely then the programming takes away one of the choices.

If you as a meat computer are programmed to make choice A then although choices B-Z may be theoretically available externally they are not really available internally or as an actual real possibility.

In theory a computer running microsoft word might start throwing up an options screen from "rome total war" from within that microsoft programming , but we know this isn't going to happen so there is no point putting it forward as a real option. We know the computer will do what it's programmed to do.

You make a choice as a meat computer , but your logic tells you that you can only make one choice (the choice you are programmed to make). But you insist on talking about having two "real" possible actions? In order for the other choice to be real and possible you would have to have different programming ,which you don't have .This makes the other choice impossible.

This is the "if I was a different person , then I would choose differently" version of free will. But it's not free will because choice is programmed and inevitable in this version. There is little point in saying that "if I was a different person then I would choose differently" because....erhem ...you are not a different person. The fact that you are a specific meat computer with a specific programming means other "real possible actions" can be excluded as possible. What they are , are "fantasy theoretical actions" based on another reality altogether. Your internal programming has eliminated these options as being possible

Now notice what we experience. We experience a sense of regret and guilt or relief , agonising etc over our choices. We really do believe that the other choice could have been made by us. It feels (sometimes) as if we reach a fork in the road and we really can go either way. You logically can't have that other choice with programming and you cannot hold a programmed meat computer morally accountable for it's actions if only one programmed choice is possible. All systems make choices of a kind , even trees and worms , but only systems that have more than one REAL option can be held accountable.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I misunderstood you. However, you don't explain how your 'will' makes a choice. Is it programmed or random? Or are you going to play knightmeisters 'hide it in a black box and pretend it doesn't exist' game.

[b]With regard to the universe setting up people to make choices, I was
pointing out that the easy way out isn’t always the way people choose
to result in the hard choice as in:
IF (A matters more than B) THEN
DO (A)
ELSE
DO (B)

[/b]I believe our “will” is tied up in our soul and spirit more so than our body which
really places our will outside of the physical realm, except that we creatures with
physical bodies that house our soul and spirit. I believe there is more to this life
than the physical world we find ourselves in; however, as we are creatures with
soul, spirit, inside our physical bodies our “will” can have pulls upon it where the
words that Jesus used come into play from time to time, “the spirit is willing but
the flesh is weak.”

With regard to the ‘universe has programmed people” since your understanding
of programming is extremely good I say it is simply a matter of easy verses
hard choices, where the only differences in some cases when those types of
choices are before us, would be what we know/believe to be right and wrong.
It would be like people who believe being married is the right thing to do if they
were to live with one another, yet because of taxes and money, they don’t so
they can squeeze a little more out of the government. The person who believes
they should not steal, yet they find a wallet with ID while they have a huge need
for that money, do they return it because it is the right thing in their mind or
not? Our judgments matter in our very make up and identities; we take the
money does that make us a thief, if we lie because it is easier, does that make
up a liar, if we take the money the governments offers and not marry the
person we are with does that makes us a fornicator and our children in those
out of wedlock unions bastards?
Kelly