1. Joined
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    11 Jul '07 02:10
    It has been said that in order to get someone saved you have to first get them lost. No one can be saved unless they have had the experience of knowing they were in need of the saviour.

    So, get lost! Then you too can have the experience of knowing you have eternal life. 🙂
  2. Donationkirksey957
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    11 Jul '07 02:14
    Originally posted by josephw
    It has been said that in order to get someone saved you have to first get them lost. No one can be saved unless they have had the experience of knowing they were in need of the saviour.

    So, get lost! Then you too can have the experience of knowing you have eternal life. 🙂
    That sounds rather Zen to me. I hope Vistesd will weigh in on this.
  3. Joined
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    11 Jul '07 02:24
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    That sounds rather Zen to me. I hope Vistesd will weigh in on this.
    Think about it for a second. What does "getting saved" imply? Is it not that we are in some sort of danger or lack something of great importance? It then stands to reason that if one does not believe there to be danger and/or there is nothing one can do about the danger then that someone will not seek to be "saved".
  4. Donationkirksey957
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    11 Jul '07 02:27
    Originally posted by whodey
    Think about it for a second. What does "getting saved" imply? Is it not that we are in some sort of danger or lack something of great importance? It then stands to reason that if one does not believe there to be danger and/or there is nothing one can do about the danger then that someone will not seek to be "saved".
    I try not to think.
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    11 Jul '07 02:34
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    I try not to think.
    Yes, but is'nt trying not to think thinking?
  6. Joined
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    11 Jul '07 02:54
    Originally posted by josephw
    So, get lost! Then you too can have the experience of knowing you have eternal life. 🙂
    Quit poking at the illusion of self permanence with a stick. Instead, take that energy and channel it into cultivating virtue and overcoming your inner consortium of bigotries. That would be something closer to salvation than whatever it is you're blabbering about.
  7. Hmmm . . .
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    11 Jul '07 03:05
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    That sounds rather Zen to me. I hope Vistesd will weigh in on this.
    Reality, as it is, is before our conceptualizations of it. I do not think we can get behind our own perceptions (how our brain interprets the sense data it receives), but we can experience the “Real” before our ideas, concepts, words. (And, then again, perhaps I have not yet gotten deep enough.)

    That is, for me, the bedrock—whether “Zen” or not.

    Frankly, my own abilities to “translate” that into conceptual terms is so limited, that on the one hand I am appreciative of the attempt to do so in various religious/philosophical traditions, and on the other hand cannot accept any of them dogmatically.

    I wander in the desert.

    But it is that bedrock experience that is, for me, the measure of whatever truth there may be in various speculations.
  8. Standard memberwittywonka
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    11 Jul '07 03:08
    Originally posted by josephw
    It has been said that in order to get someone saved you have to first get them lost. No one can be saved unless they have had the experience of knowing they were in need of the saviour.

    So, get lost! Then you too can have the experience of knowing you have eternal life. 🙂
    What if they are neither lost nor found, so to speak?
  9. Joined
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    11 Jul '07 03:081 edit
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Reality, as it is, is before our conceptualizations of it. I do not think we can get behind our own perceptions (how our brain interprets the sense data it receives), but we can experience the “Real” before our ideas, concepts, words. (And, then again, perhaps I have not yet gotten deep enough.)

    That is, for me, the bedrock—whether “Zen” or not.

    Fran ...[text shortened]... experience that is, for me, the measure of whatever truth there may be in various speculations.
    Thanks for responding to Kirksey. You might say that you "saved" him from thinking. 😛
  10. Joined
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    11 Jul '07 03:40
    Originally posted by vistesd
    That is, for me, the bedrock
    Hey, have you read Gary Snyder's poem Bedrock (for Masa)? I think that's the title. Lovely poem, I think you'd like it. I still have to thank BdN for prompting me get his Turtle Island
  11. Hmmm . . .
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    11 Jul '07 03:441 edit
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    Hey, have you read Gary Snyder's poem Bedrock (for Masa)? I think that's the title. Lovely poem, I think you'd like it. I still have to thank BdN for prompting me get his Turtle Island
    I have read almost everything by Gary Snyder--including Turtle Island.

    But my memory is tremendously errant (as BdN knows): I'll look up that one.

    EDIT: Snyder is a serious Zennist. I heard him read once; am embarrased to say that I have a book signed by him...
  12. Joined
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    11 Jul '07 03:471 edit
    Originally posted by vistesd
    I have read almost everything by Gary Snyder--including Turtle Island.

    But my memory is tremendously errant (as BdN knows): I'll look up that one.
    I figured as much, you're well read. It's maybe not directly applicable, except that I like the imagery of lying on the bedrock, as it were, and "leaving your mind to the wind" (I'm paraphrasing probably).
  13. Hmmm . . .
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    11 Jul '07 03:53
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    I figured as much, you're well read. It's maybe not directly applicable, except that I like the imagery of lying on the bedrock, as it were, and "leaving your mind to the wind" (I'm paraphrasing probably).
    I have a wonderful story about the night we went to the Snyder reading—my (future at the time) wife “beached” her Geo Metro on a curb in the parking lot, and a buddy of mine and I had to leave the auditorium to rescue it. Just made it back in time for the reading.

    I asked Snyder to read his poem about repairing the ‘55 Willys (I can’t recall the proper title), but he said it was too long.
  14. Joined
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    11 Jul '07 03:58
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    I try not to think.
    Can you feel anything?
  15. Joined
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    11 Jul '07 04:01
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    Quit poking at the illusion of self permanence with a stick. Instead, take that energy and channel it into cultivating virtue and overcoming your inner consortium of bigotries. That would be something closer to salvation than whatever it is you're blabbering about.
    I can see that you are a prime candidate for getting lost.
    Now get lost.
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