God lives in Chicago

Originally posted by telerion
I had an excellent discussion with my brother-in-law and his wife while on vacation. They are both xtians, she from childhood and he a convert of some 4 or 5 years. They have become less attached to church in the last year or so, and this relaxation of dogma allowed us to have an open discussion.

They began by questioning what my atheism was and wonder ...[text shortened]... ugh a bit perplexed at their willingness to concede so many horrible things about their god.

good food for thought, tel. i am just as perplexed as you are about their concessions.

as to the morality of God, it does not bother them that God commands many seemingly evil actions in the Bible. He is God and therefore he can do it.

i am frankly appalled at how many people insist that god may dictate morality simply through fiat. this view is simply uninhabitable. even a cursory glance at its implications should send everyone scurrying in the opposite direction.

you've got me thinking of ideas for new threads.

did they give any reason why they would worship such a God under such conditions?

No. To be honest, I don't think that they really believe their statement, that is to say that they still think he's good. I suspect that they seperate the belief under question in our discussion from the belief that they actually possess. In this way while an intellectual puppet of their faith may admit all manner of extreme, and frankly 'unchristian' if I may be permitted to use this term, positions in order to maintain itself, their actual faith is never really on the table. I suppose it's basically an example of cognitive dissonance.

Perhaps in their mind, our activity, while enjoyable, was really nothing more than mental masturbation.

did they give any reason why they would worship such a God under such conditions?

I think it's just that their not at the place where they really want to question the truthfulness of their beliefs. I discovered during the course of our talk that their current difficulties with xtianity stem more from disagreements with organized churches, not from difficulties with God. When I told my sister-in-law that it sounded to me like she was looking for another Reformation, she replied, "Yes. A reformation and a revelation."

I don't think any fear of theirs comes from 2). Like I mentioned above, I think that they still in practice believe in an all-loving, personal god who wants us to be happy, etc. When I told them that the last hurdle I had to cross when admitting my atheism to myself was getting beyond the fear of Hell, they at first seemed surprised, but there reaction immediately changed to empathy. So I doubt that fear type (1) is playing any conscious role as yet, though I suspect it is in the background, especially for my sister-in-law who grew up in the faith as I did.

Maybe I'm just seeing the initial stages of a future deconversion, but as yet, they still seem pretty entrenched. I imagine that deconverting would be even more difficult for them because their shared faith is a big part of their marriage. I think their individual deconversions would have to occur concomitantly.

Funny story. During the course of the talk, my brother-in-law excused himself to use the bathroom. On his way in, he saw my wife and told her, "I can't believe [me] doesn't go insane." My wife asked him why, and he said, "Because he just questions everything and breaks everything down." My wife, a proud liberal arts major, looked at her older brother and retorted, "It's called critical thinking."

Originally posted by telerion
[b]did they give any reason why they would worship such a God under such conditions?

No. To be honest, I don't think that they really believe their statement, that is to say that they still think he's good. I suspect that they seperate the belief under question in our discussion from the belief that they actually possess. In this w ...[text shortened]... iberal arts major, looked at her older brother and retorted, "It's called critical thinking."[/b]

Yes, I think you’re probably right. It is difficult to deconstruct a closely held belief-system, and cognitive dissonance is common, and hard to see in oneself. Sometimes, if the old system collapses for us, we tend to search madly for a new one to replace it, with all the same “certainties” and securities—looking for a “truth” that we need no longer question, so that we can relinquish the burden of critical thinking. At least that has been my experience.

Nietzsche once said something to the effect that, more important than having the courage of your convictions, is to have the courage to mount an attack on your own convictions.

Originally posted by telerion
I had an excellent discussion with my brother-in-law and his wife while on vacation. They are both xtians, she from childhood and he a convert of some 4 or 5 years. They have become less attached to church in the last year or so, and this relaxation of dogma allowed us to have an open discussion.

They began by questioning what my atheism was and wonder ...[text shortened]... ugh a bit perplexed at their willingness to concede so many horrible things about their god.

In your opinion, God must allow everything that occurs,
because God is in total control, because God is all-powerful?

Which is to say no thought or action can be done without God's
blessing I guess. So at any time any one has a thought or action
that is because God is in power so it must be okay with God?

That is your position?
Kelly

Originally posted by Coletti
Would you believe it if it came from an angle? Why would you believe what the angle said? How would you know the angle was and angle and not some demon?

And if the angle spoke to you, how would you tell others without getting it wrong? Do you have perfect recall? Maybe he should broadcast it by radio. But better would be some sort of recording in c ...[text shortened]... . I think 2+2 was true 2000 years ago. So is the proposition "Jesus died to redeem sinners".

And would you measure the angle ? Would it be believed even if it was a triangle ? How would you find it's hypotenuse ? What if it was an equal-lateral triangle and thus part of a trinity ? Would you believe it then ? How would you know your protractor was correct ? I'll bet you've seen lots of angles and still don't believe !

Originally posted by KellyJay
In your opinion, God must allow everything that occurs,
because God is in total control, because God is all-powerful?

Which is to say no thought or action can be done without God's
blessing I guess. So at any time any one has a thoug ...[text shortened]... er so it must be okay with God?

That is your position?
Kelly

Your question is a bit outside the point of my post. Everyone present at the discussion agreed with my argument, and their responses were given with this understanding in mind. The lead in about child rape was just one natural extension from the argument. Below is basically a longer version of my argument.

God possesses both omniscience and omnipotence. As the Creator he had a choice over every logically possible creation including no creation at all. As long as God was not compelled against his will by anything exterior to him, then he willingly created this world, well aware of every horror that would obtain. If he did not will any particular one of these things he could have chosen instead to create a world in which that particular thing would not obtain. Furthermore every possible excuse for his choice to include a particular evil, outside of the demonstration that the elimination of that particular evil necessarily implies a logical contradiction, is only a pushing back of the decision since this excuse would have also been a willful choice of God.

For example, one popular, and longstanding, xtian belief, is that this creation is one in which eternal (i.e. infinite) suffering will obtain. Some fraction of all persons in existence will remain perpetually in a state of torment in a place called Hell. Now it must be that God desired this because he selected this Creation despite both fully knowing that Hell would be occupied and being entirely free to choose otherwise.

Consider further that if your beliefs are correct, then it is quite likely that you will spend eternity in Heaven, and I will suffer eternally in Hell. Now if this is the case it must be that God willed from before Creation, that I spend eternity in Hell. If it were not the case then he would have selected a Creation in which I did not go to Hell. One simple possible alternative would be one exactly like this one but where I did not exist. In this way, he would not violate my free will (as he never asked me if I wanted to exist in the first place), and he would not have me suffer eternally against his will.

Originally posted by Coletti
Would you believe it if it came from an angle?

I believe most of what I learnt in geometry, most of which concerned angles.