gods tools

in the eyes of religion does god exist outside of science? i was wondering if the building blocks of protons, electrons, higgs-thingybobs and all that stuff is there because thats what god uses to do his stuff or are they there as some sort of play gym to keep our little minds busy.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
in the eyes of religion does god exist outside of science? i was wondering if the building blocks of protons, electrons, higgs-thingybobs and all that stuff is there because thats what god uses to do his stuff or are they there as some sort of play gym to keep our little minds busy.

This is an interesting idea and I'm sure there will be lots of viewpoints. Mine is that science is God's creation and therefore hard facts have to be accepted irrespective of dogma. It's the interpretation of those facts that I sometimes doubt. There are a lot of (I believe) Biblical references to what we now know to be scientific facts; for example I particularly like the way God is described in the OT as having "stretched out the heavens"; an interesting parallel to the expanding universe.

science is the discovery of gods work

Originally posted by stoker
science is the discovery of gods work

"God" is the discovery of science's gaps

am i correct in saying before the universe was created god existed in a void. so he must exist outside of science, as there was no matter. so does this imply he has magic powers? would a being with infinite power find amusement in the creation of beings designed to worship him? where did gods ego and vanity come from. there is no reason living in a void would cause a being to have basic human desires. he would only create and act like his creations if he was under a set of conditions that he was restricted to that would mean universal laws or a science. if he has laws to stay within means that science one day will find him and we will know him and if need be kill him and replace him with a democratically elected messiah, or at least do community service.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
in the eyes of religion does god exist outside of science? i was wondering if the building blocks of protons, electrons, higgs-thingybobs and all that stuff is there because thats what god uses to do his stuff or are they there as some sort of play gym to keep our little minds busy.

Yeah, you have some interesting thinking going on there, dont ya.

In the eyes of my religion ( one member, me, no room for anyone else ), "god" does not exist outside of anything. God either exists everywhere ,known and unknown, or does not exist at all. Either way that is the only conclusion my religion has come to. You can follow either path but both lead to the same place.

It has been put by some observers ,(cant think of any names right now, but I have heard it said by more than 2 commentators) , that quauntum theory,(which is still in it's infancy), is just demonstrating/confirming(?), scientifically,(maybe 'scientifically' should have inverted commas around it here, I'm not sure how many scientists are on board with this/these idea(s) ), what eastern mysticism has postulated all along, ie that everything in the universe is made of the same stuff. And that that "stuff" is all but empty, (lol). (Sunyata - have I spelled this right? I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong here with this word. I'm no Sanskrit scholar).
Also that the act of measuring/calculating,(any scientific experimentation) , must take into account the bias (and the mere presence) of the questioner, indeed, we cannot have a perfect vacuum , or a prefect experiment without factoring in the observer,(or namely the scientist(s) who are performing the experimentation).

Note: I hope that any other (more) intelligent/better read person of either Eastern thought or science ,and in particular physics, will see that I am merely a novice who has read much on both subjects (ie many science books and many hindu/buddhist literature ), but has used these ideas to form my own view of the world I find myself in. I do not want to bend the rules/meanings to suit my own agenda,(like some christians,RJ, seem to ). I would like to stick to the real meanings and full implications of these scientific and mystical ideas, but at the end of the day, when I have taken on board these ideas and then regurgitated them to demonstrate some of my theories, inevitabely they are going to sound like I have twisted the meanings. Again, this is not my intention and some of you may have seen that I have made genuine scientific enquiries to some posters here (Proper Knob comes to mind and my queries to him about the accepted scientific dates of the universe and life), to take on the accepted meanings and findings so that if they contradict my ideas then I will have to refine (if not throw out altogether) my ideas on spirituality.
Thank you.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
am i correct in saying before the universe was created god existed in a void. so he must exist outside of science, as there was no matter. so does this imply he has magic powers? would a being with infinite power find amusement in the creation of beings designed to worship him? where did gods ego and vanity come from. there is no reason living in a void ...[text shortened]... ill him and replace him with a democratically elected messiah, or at least do community service.

You're assuming much here. Also you are projecting more anthropomorphic ideas on an unkown,ie "God" . (I am always careful to put inverted commas around 'god' with a big "G" )

You cannot speculate that "God" existed in a void or anything else before the big bang, (which is a fact - in our part of the universe anyway ,lol).

Similarly , you cannot project things like "him", "magical powers",etc. onto an unknown.
We have all that we need to understand "God", yet "he" alludes all of us.

I believe we worship or devote ourselves to an unknown "God" for various reasons. The least of which are copying others, like elders or family traditions.
Thats ok for young people, but , as I think I am among the youngest here, we must press beyond the 'red-herrings' and dead-ends of devotion to find the one true dead-end. As co-authored by yourself.

Many questions, simple/similar answers.

Let go of "victim conciousness" (Thats a big one).
Understand that you are asleep in "God's waiting room" , (for those that realize that they are asleep, aye, at best dreaming of this life, already have one eye open).
No normal thinking is going to access "God" .
We must treat our lives, the universe, "God" , and any wholistic type questions like that as koans.
We must understand what our egos are, their function, and that our similarity is mixed with our perfect uniquenesses . That every single one of us is an enigma.

All this and more. Firstly in a scholarly fashion and then in an experiential way.
If my 16 year old daughter can get into spirit of these assertions/questions, then I'm sure most of you can too. 🙂

Originally posted by stellspalfie
in the eyes of religion does god exist outside of science? i was wondering if the building blocks of protons, electrons, higgs-thingybobs and all that stuff is there because thats what god uses to do his stuff or are they there as some sort of play gym to keep our little minds busy.

Traditionally that has been the case. But the religions of the 21st century would do well to equate their god with the sum total of scientific law. And every scientific insight gives us a greater understanding of the hand of god at work. At least that's how I'd frame it if I were a 21st century religionist.