Originally posted by rwingett Likewise, if mankind had culturally evolved into a primarily pastoral and nomadic population, then I'm sure our morality would have also taken a very different course.
According to Genghis Khan, arch-nomad and hater of cities, "man's greatest good fortune is to chase and defeat his enemy, seize his total possessions, leave his married women weeping and wailing, ride his gelding, and use the bodies of his women."
("Conan, what is best in life?
“To crush my enemy, to see him driven before me, and to hear the lamentations of the women." - Conan the Barbarian, from the movie)
Originally posted by KellyJay ROFL
“…but fanatics and the media are doing..."
You believe there are different types or kinds of people on the planet
than I take it, those that evolved, and the fanatics and those that
work in the media?
Personally I disagree with that assessment, there is only one kind
of people on the planet, and we daily here and in the paper what
read what is in the heart of people by their actions.
Kelly
Define a type.
There are n dimensional continuums which we all sit somewhere on. Everyone has the potential to do good and do evil, I doubt anyone is all one and not some of the other. I merely highlighted two groups of people who are impeding our progress.
Originally posted by ivanhoe But according to your own theory this may change.
In light of mankind's universal dislike of being cut down in a hail of machine gun fire, it is a safe bet to say that it will not. While it is technically possible that some things could change, the very nature of humanity virtually insures that they will not. Murder will always be illegal in every culture.
Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard Yes, your reasoning based on what you know. Considering the possible consequence of your actions, but nothing more than that.
Don’t you believe that we know nothing? How can we know the possible consequences of our actions? Are we fortune tellers?
Reason and logic can be used to justify anything. Suppose the guy that Nemesio shoots in the face for cutting him off in traffic was going to break into Nemesio’s house and rape/kill his family? We don’t know that this wasn’t going to happen, so now Nemesio has saved the day.
Reason/logic are insufficient for determining what is right or wrong.
History proves that mankind has always been capable of henious acts and one needs only to look back to this last 20th century to observe the level of our barbarity and disregard for fellow human life - I'm not even gonna feint an environmentalist stance on this one, although they also have a strong case in this instance.
I don't think we are getting any more evolved in our goodness towards each other.
Originally posted by Halitose History proves that mankind has always been capable of henious acts and one needs only to look back to this last 20th century to observe the level of our barbarity and disregard for fellow human life - I'm not even gonna feint an environmentalist stance on this one, although they also have a strong case in this instance.
I don't think we are getting any more evolved in our goodness towards each other.[/b]
I don't think we are getting any more evolved in our goodness towards each other.
People nowadays have a lot more rights than they ever had before.
If you’re referring to the state of people's consciousness, this is more difficult to measure. You may have a point.
Edit: Personally, I like to believe that with more legal rights, people come to better appreciate the value of another’s position. In this way overall empathy is increased.
Originally posted by The Chess Express Read my last edit. Would legal rights lead to greater appreciation of other peoples positions?
Example, England made it legal for an English man to rape the bride of a Scottish man. This was referred to as first rights. Nowadays that law is abolished, and most people know that this is morally wrong.
Yes, it might increase moral awareness, but IMO being capable of both good and evil has always been our destiny and is a stagnant position; I don't think there will be a time where humans would be incapable of murdering, stealing or any other violation of basic human rights.
Originally posted by The Chess Express Don’t you believe that we know nothing? How can we know the possible consequences of our actions? Are we fortune tellers?
Reason and logic can be used to justify anything. Suppose the guy that Nemesio shoots in the face for cutting him off in traffic was going to break into Nemesio’s house and rape/kill his family? We don’t know that this wasn’t ...[text shortened]... sio has saved the day.
Reason/logic are insufficient for determining what is right or wrong.
No I dont believe I know nothing, in my earlier post I gave a list of some of the things that I know.
Reason and logic can be used to justify anything. Suppose the guy that Nemesio shoots in the face for cutting him off in traffic was going to break into Nemesio’s house and rape/kill his family? We don’t know that this wasn’t going to happen, so now Nemesio has saved the day. That is just being paranoid it has nothing to do with thinking before acting. If he does not shoot the man then there is no "moral" action so he does not have to think about the possible consequences...😉
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21 Nov '05 00:14
[/b]Biblically speaking, man is born to sin/do evil. He inherits a corrupt heart. While the evil man does may not be apparent, he has the potential to do evil because his heart is sick.
Jer 17:9
9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?
Here is the same verse in different versions.
Jer 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?
(ASV)
Jer 17:9
9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?
(NAS)
Jer 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
(NIV)
Jer 13:23
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.
(NKJ)
Rom 6:20-21
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
(NKJ)
Man is a slave to sin. He has little power over it. He is set free in Christ.
Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
(NKJ)
Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard No I dont believe I know nothing, in my earlier post I gave a list of some of the things that I know.
Reason and logic can be used to justify anything. Suppose the guy that Nemesio shoots in the face for cutting him off in traffic was going to break into Nemesio’s house and rape/kill his family? We don’t know that this wasn’t going to happen, n there is no "moral" action so he does not have to think about the possible consequences...😉[/b]
[/b]Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard
You can base your choices on what you KNOW instead of belief.
I can only speak for myself but here are some of the things that I know:
- I want to be happy
- I have compassion
- I feel unhappy when I go against my compassion
Of course I would feel bad about this but I don’t see how emotions prove the existence of morals…
There seems to be something contradictory about this. If emotions don’t prove morals to you then why base your decisions on them?
I remember a Buddhist master saying in a lecture that in essence Buddhism is basing your choices on your feelings. This made perfect sense to me because reason itself just fails to determine what is right and wrong.
Yes, this is the point I’m trying to make.
That is just being paranoid it has nothing to do with thinking before acting.
Thinking before acting does not guarantee a morally correct decision. Suppose the driver that cut you off shot you in the face. Then your reasoning would have led to your unhappiness.
Hitler thought before he acted. His reasoning led him to the holocaust.
You can base your choices on what you KNOW instead of belief.
I can only speak for myself but here are some of the things that I know:
- I want to be happy
- I have compassion
- I feel unhappy when I go against my compassion
Of course I would feel bad about this but I don’t see h to your unhappiness.
Hitler thought before he acted. His reasoning led him to the holocaust.
Im saying morals do not exist, only your personal desire for happiness.
Thats why I would base my choices on what makes me happy. You could say that this is very egoistic, but if you think about if ever moral rule we ever made up is egoistic.
When I say basing your choices on what you feel is right I mean trusting on your compassion or empathy. I think everyone has a natural sense of what is right and wrong. I know for sure that I have it, so it seems reasonable to assume other have it aswell.
Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard Im saying morals do not exist, only your personal desire for happiness.
Thats why I would base my choices on what makes me happy. You could say that this is very egoistic, but if you think about if ever moral rule we ever made up is egoistic.
When I say basing your choices on what you feel is right I mean trusting on your compassion or empath nd wrong. I know for sure that I have it, so it seems reasonable to assume other have it aswell.[/b]
Im saying morals do not exist, only your personal desire for happiness. Thats why I would base my choices on what makes me happy. You could say that this is very egoistic, but if you think about if ever moral rule we ever made up is egoistic.
This is not exactly true. In the dark ages something like 70% of all women in Europe were raped by the time they were 21.
Rape may make the rapist happy, but not the victim. Only with empathy does it make us unhappy to rape another because of the victims feelings.
When I say basing your choices on what you feel is right I mean trusting on your compassion or empathy.
I'm more comfortable with this in regards to making moral decisions than just selfish happiness.
Making moral decisions sometimes means putting another’s happiness ahead of our own.
Originally posted by connerac Well yes, "what is good today can be right tomorrow" is true. Think Apartheid, segregation in the US, Rosa Parkes, the suffragettes, homosexuality, public (or private) execution etc etc etc.
Truth is organic. Although I still think the world might be flat!
Truth is organic. Although I still think the world might be flat!
Truth does not depend on you or me defining it, it is what it is.
Truth about any matter will remain if we label it X or label it Y,
it remains what it is. Our values may change, but no matter how
much we value anything, or how much we do not value anything
they remain what they are. A rose by any name would smell as
sweet, I believe the quote goes.
Kelly
Good and Evil
20 Nov '05 16:22
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