@suzianne said
I say if that thought makes you feel better and keeps you from your typical condescending knee-jerk response, then you're entitled to it.

It's just my perspective on your assertion that "Christianity doesn't have weakness".

@suzianne said
No, no, no and no.

Sinful man will always, always attempt to twist what is holy into an invitation to more sin. Look at the Crusades. It's not an error of Christianity. Christianity IS about following the teaching of Jesus. Otherwise the Gospels would be written much as the video in the OP. Evil men, twisting and subverting the Word of God from what it is into an exc ...[text shortened]... modern sins of those who claim to be Christian on the religion itself is entirely missing the point.

It's not an error of Christianity. Christianity IS about following the teaching of Jesus.

I agree that Christianity SHOULD have following the teaching of Jesus and abiding in His word as its foundation. Unfortunately the fact is that it doesn't.

For example, Jesus said that "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine...". That's not how Christianity defines His disciples. As such, many Christians can easily not abide in His word and believe that He is their Lord, believe that they are "born again", believe that they have the Holy Spirit, etc. If Christianity had following the teaching of Jesus and abiding in His word as its foundation, they would not reasonably be able to do this.

"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. What Martin Luther. in his reformation, failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ. Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down. making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ"
---Soren Kierkegaard, writing in The Journals

Christianity does not have the teachings of Jesus and abiding in His word as its foundation. Instead it has believing in "Christ The Atoner" as its foundation. Therein lies the fundamental flaw.

@thinkofone said
It's not an error of Christianity. Christianity IS about following the teaching of Jesus.

I agree that Christianity SHOULD have following the teaching of Jesus and abiding in His word as its foundation. Unfortunately the fact is that it doesn't.

For example, Jesus said that "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine...". That's not how ...[text shortened]... nstead it has believing in "Christ The Atoner" as its foundation. Therein lies the fundamental flaw.

Jesus also said he was sent by God. Should we ignore that?

@thinkofone said

For example, Jesus said that "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine...".

That's true, those words are attributed to him. Also attributed to him are the words, " "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you."

How can you propagate the first while ignoring the second? - Can you not decern the obvious flaw in that?!

@ghost-of-a-duke said
That's true, those words are attributed to him. Also attributed to him are the words, " "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you."

How can you propagate the first while ignoring the second? - Can you not decern the obvious flaw in that?!

Of course he can which is precisely why he won’t respond in the thread about that very topic.

@divegeester said
Of course he can which is precisely why he won’t respond in the thread about that very topic.

ToO has said previously that answering that question would lead to ad hominems. This in itself is disingenuous. What he really means is that answering that question will lead to 'follow up questions.' (Which he knows he would struggle to deal with).

Why is this? Well clearly ToO does not believe Jesus was sent by God, and the fact that Jesus said 'he was' is highly problematic for him. Indeed, only 3 replies are possible, none of which being easy to defend:

1. Jesus lied. (Which would be self-destroying for ToO).
2. Those words were falsely attributed to him. (Impossible to prove and would raise the question 'how can we, therefore, be certain any of his words were attributable to him? )
3. Jesus faithfully believed he was sent by God but was mistaken. (A particularly weak argument and would cause ToO a whole host of problems).

@fmf said
It's just my perspective on your assertion that "Christianity doesn't have weakness".

Well, then, thanks for your rather adjective-laden "perspective".

@suzianne said
Well, then, thanks for your rather adjective-laden "perspective".

The concept of people being tortured for eternity for their lack of belief is morally incoherent and is therefore an inherent and fundamental weakness of Christianity. You said Christianity has no weakness; it clearly does.

@thinkofone said
It's not an error of Christianity. Christianity IS about following the teaching of Jesus.

I agree that Christianity SHOULD have following the teaching of Jesus and abiding in His word as its foundation. Unfortunately the fact is that it doesn't.

For example, Jesus said that "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine...". That's not how ...[text shortened]... nstead it has believing in "Christ The Atoner" as its foundation. Therein lies the fundamental flaw.

I disagree. You seem to think that Christianity is some "mish-mash" of ideas cobbled together by people after the fact, many of whom wish to "cash-in".

No. Christianity, as offered up in the New Testament, rightfully belongs among the world religions, with its message of hope and personal responsibility.

It's just how some people practice it, and their "perspectitive" on it, that is wrong, but still, that is not what Christianity IS.

Christianity IS about "following the teachings of Jesus". It's also about "loving God" and "loving your neighbor as you love yourself".

But guess what? People fall short. That's not the "fault" of Christianity.

@suzianne said
Christianity IS about "following the teachings of Jesus". It's also about "loving God" and "loving your neighbor as you love yourself".

But guess what? People fall short. That's not the "fault" of Christianity.

Is the doctrine of people being tortured for eternity for their lack of belief the "fault" of Christianity or is it an example Christians falling short?

@fmf said
The concept of people being tortured for eternity for their lack of belief is morally incoherent and is therefore an inherent and fundamental weakness of Christianity. You said Christianity has no weakness; it clearly does.

I maintain that Christianity is not about that. People (and entire churches) have glommed onto this as a typical 'fear tactic'. Again, what you speak of is what some people think, usually because it's what someone "told" them Christianity is about. I read the Bible, and I don't really come to that conclusion. In my opinion, for what it's worth, is that this is just a 'fear' tactic, but this is NOT Christianity, because Christianity IS about 'love', not 'fear'.

In short, the concept doesn't fit in with my Christianity, which comes from the New Testament. It's not a 'weakness' in my Christianity. And again, as I've said in another thread here, what some people do to Christianity to warp it into something acceptable to them, is the fault of those people, not the fault of Christianity itself, which, again, has no 'weakness'.

The concept you describe is something being 'tacked on' to my Christianity, and so it is not 'inherent', nor 'fundamental', to my Christianity.

@suzianne said
The concept you describe is something being 'tacked on' to my Christianity, and so it is not 'inherent', nor 'fundamental', to my Christianity.

Is subscription to and propagation of the doctrine of eternal torture ~ something that maybe one and a half billion or maybe even two billion members of Christendom think is true ~ an example of Christians falling short? Are posters like sonship and KellyJay and whodey and dj2becker ~ who believe in and promote the doctrine ~ are they examples of Christians falling short by tacking the doctrine on to Christianity?

@suzianne said
what some people do to Christianity to warp it into something acceptable to them, is the fault of those people, not the fault of Christianity itself, which, again, has no 'weakness'.

The concept you describe is something being 'tacked on' to my Christianity, and so it is not 'inherent', nor 'fundamental', to my Christianity.

Does sonship "warp" Christianity into something acceptable to him?

Is it not a "weakness" of Christianity that there are verses in the Bible that allow Christians to argue that eternal torture is a fundamental part of Christian belief?

@fmf said
Is subscription to and propagation of the doctrine of eternal torture ~ something that maybe one and a half billion or maybe even two billion members of Christendom think is true ~ an example of Christians falling short? Are posters like sonship and KellyJay and whodey and dj2becker ~ who believe in and promote the doctrine ~ are they examples of Christians falling short by tacking the doctrine on to Christianity?

Come back and ask me your question again once you've decided what it is that you actually want to say.

@fmf said
Does sonship "warp" Christianity into something acceptable to him?

Is it not a "weakness" of Christianity that there are verses in the Bible that allow Christians to argue that eternal torture is a fundamental part of Christian belief?

Again, their perceptions are on them, not on me, not on their holy book, nor on their religion as a whole.