Grace vs Self-Effort

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Believing what the scripture says is not proof. Take this example from Nemesio”

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Originally posted by Nemesio

“Lucifershammer:

You cite an interesting passage in St Matthew 16:19. Every English translation I've ever
seen has b ...[text shortened]... is not proof and therefore not faith.

True faith in God can only be had by direct experience.

Alright then...let me see what you are actually saying here.

So you see, we don’t really know. Even if we were somehow able to determine the true meanings of the original authors, it still comes down to taking somebody else’s word. This is not proof and therefore not faith.

So then, none of the bible is relevent. Why do you even believe God exists?
Don't tell me you are taking someone at his word. If the bible is just a book, and we really can't trust it, then I would not believe in God. So I might as well eat, drink and chase woman. Right? I may as well enjoy the pleasures of this world. There are no consequences other than civil law.
Cooooooooool..........😵

bump

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Alright then...let me see what you are actually saying here.

[b]So you see, we don’t really know. Even if we were somehow able to determine the true meanings of the original authors, it still comes down to taking somebody else’s word. This is not proof and therefore not faith.

So then, none of the bible is relevent. Why do you even believe God ...[text shortened]... easures of this world. There are no consequences other than civil law.
Cooooooooool..........😵[/b]

This may be where we are not communicating. If I understand what you mean here, you’re saying that if the Bible is not totally 100% accurate, none of it is. This need not be the case. A written work need not be all true or totally wrong.

The legal laws that are written down for example are amended constantly. This is true to a lesser degree with the Bible. The church has edited parts of it, the translators have not always given us the real meaning of the words, and you yourself base your knowledge of the scripture on of the NKJ version of the Bible.

This does indeed make the scripture less than 100% reliable and open to interpretation. This is why there are 100’s of kinds of Christianity. Everybody interprets the scripture differently. I don’t believe that this makes the scripture irrelevant though.

It’s true that the scripture can never make us understand God as in know God. This is something that we need to achieve in ourselves, not by blind faith, but by personal effort to achieve true faith, the proof of things unseen. The scripture is seen right? God is invisible, so it requires direct personal experience with God to prove to ourselves that he exists.

If the Bible is 80& or 90% accurate, it still contains plenty of truth. It can still bring people to make the effort and find God for themselves. Since the time of the first scripture, this has always been the true purpose of it. Even if the scripture were 100% reliable as you assume, it is still just a collection of words. How can words give full understanding of the taste of an orange? God must be experienced to be understood.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
This may be where we are not communicating. If I understand what you mean here, you’re saying that if the Bible is not totally 100% accurate, none of it is. This need not be the case. A written work need not be all true or totally wrong.

The legal laws that are written down for example are amended constantly. This is true to a lesser degree wit ...[text shortened]... rds give full understanding of the taste of an orange? God must be experienced to be understood.

Ok....I think I see where you are coming from.
I only use the NKJ as default for my pc study bible, I don't really have a preference.
Here is a verse that may help explain your position....I think...

Exod 33:11
11 So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp,.....
(NKJ)

But I still believe that the bible needs to be studied continually/daily and not "discarded". If a Christian is to stray too far from the written word of God, he will eventually be defeated.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Ok....I think I see where you are coming from.
I only use the NKJ as default for my pc study bible, I don't really have a preference.
Here is a verse that may help explain your position....I think...

Exod 33:11
11 So the [b]LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp,.....
(NKJ)

But I ...[text shortened]... If a Christian is to stray too far from the written word of God, he will eventually be defeated.[/b]

My brother, I think we have reached a common middle ground. Thanks for the verse BTW. 🙂