Grace vs Self-Effort

"Every religious group I've encountered in this country tells its members they don't have to work for their salvation-'lest any man should boast', they explain, quoting St. Paul (Eph 2:8,9). Their doctrin of salvation is based entirely on belief: Believe as they do and you'll be saved by God's grace. Many make church membership a further condition for salvation, the implication being that, if anything more needs doing, the church will do it for you."

"However, didn't Jesus tell his followers, 'Why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?' Suppose you want riches. Will you sit in a room and wait for God to give them to you simply because you believe in Him? Hardly! You'll work very hard to earn them. Why, then expect salvation to come to you effortlessly, just because you believe?"

"And what of that further condition for salvation: joining the right church? Salvation is a personal matter between each soul and God." You have to individually love God with all your heart. "Church membership may be helpful, if it fosters an inward relationship with him, but outward membership is no guarantee of this inward relationship, and it is certainly no substitute for it."

"If anybody tell you that church membership will give you God, ask him if his church membership can eat for you vicariously as well. If it can't fill your body without effort on your own part to eat food, why should you accept that it will fill your soul without spirtual effort on your part?"

"Salvation means freedom from ego-limitation, which is imposed on the soul through attachment to body-consciousness. Salvation can come only by great personal effort."

"It is true that others can help you in your effort. It is true also that God's grace alone can save you; St. Paul was perfectly correct in what he said. Nevertheless, your sincere effort must be there also. Without great effort on your part, you will never attain salvation."

The Essence of Self-Realization.

Rev 2:19 "I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first."

According to St Paul, faith is the proof of things unseen. I would argue that there is a difference between faith and blind faith. Blind faith is just a belief based on a religion. Faith is knowledge of that which has been experienced.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
"Every religious group I've encountered in this country tells its members they don't have to work for their salvation-'lest any man should boast', they explain, quoting St. Paul (Eph 2:8,9). Their doctrin of salvation is based entirely on belief: Believe as they do and you'll be saved by God's grace. Many make church membership a further con ...[text shortened]... d service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first."

I think Church Membership is a joke, Its putting religion in front of the Lord

Originally posted by flyUnity
I think Church Membership is a joke, Its putting religion in front of the Lord

You may be right. However, let's say the game of chess is our religion. Why the need or desire for RHP? You can play the game privately with a neighbor or even a family member, but why the attraction (I'm assuming it's there) to RHP?

Originally posted by kirksey957
You may be right. However, let's say the game of chess is our religion. Why the need or desire for RHP? You can play the game privately with a neighbor or even a family member, but why the attraction (I'm assuming it's there) to RHP?

I agree with this analogy. I can't recall where, but Jesus said something to the effect of "Where two or more are gathered in my name, there I am" (paraphrased).

It can be uplifting to be in the company of like minded people. It's important though to stay focused on one's inner relationship with God and not get caught up in all the politics and rhetoric that people sometimes bring.

See my "The Goal of Religion" thread.

Originally posted by kirksey957
You may be right. However, let's say the game of chess is our religion. Why the need or desire for RHP? You can play the game privately with a neighbor or even a family member, but why the attraction (I'm assuming it's there) to RHP?

Whats the difference between " attraction" and "addiction"

Originally posted by flyUnity
Whats the difference between " attraction" and "addiction"

Good question. I think this forum is too addicting. 🙂

Originally posted by The Chess Express
"Every religious group I've encountered in this country tells its members they don't have to work for their salvation-'lest any man should boast', they explain, quoting St. Paul (Eph 2:8,9). Their doctrin of salvation is based entirely on belief: Believe as they do and you'll be saved by God's grace. Many make church membership a further con ...[text shortened]... d service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first."

Believing is a verb. A verb connotes "action".

Rom 10:9
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
(NKJ)

The tricky part is "confess Jesus as Lord". If He is Lord in your life, then He is in the "drivers seat". Most Christians won't give it up. Then you have to wonder, what did they confess? Or are they even "saved"?

Originally posted by The Chess Express
According to St Paul, faith is the proof of things unseen. I would argue that there is a difference between faith and blind faith. Blind faith is just a belief based on a religion. Faith is knowledge of that which has been experienced.

I'll buy that in part. Faith is believing what God said and acting on it.

Nemesio has talked about this subject frequently and in great detail. Is he around anymore?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Believing is a verb. A verb connotes "action".

Rom 10:9
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
(NKJ)

The tricky part is "confess Jesus as Lord". If He is Lord in your life, then He is in the "drivers seat". Most Christians won't give it up. Then you have to wonder, what did they confess? Or are they even "saved"?

If He is Lord in your life, then He is in the "drivers seat". Most Christians won't give it up. Then you have to wonder, what did they confess? Or are they even "saved"?

I can agree with this wholeheartedly. I'm still contemplating myself what it means to let the Lord be in the drivers seat. Thanks for the post.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I'll buy that in part. Faith is believing what God said and acting on it.

Believing what the scripture says is not proof. Take this example from Nemesio”

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Originally posted by Nemesio

“Lucifershammer:

You cite an interesting passage in St Matthew 16:19. Every English translation I've ever
seen has been dishonest relative to the Greek. The verse reads, in Greek:

Doso soi tas kleidas tes basileias ton ouranon,
I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens,

kai o ean deses epi tes ges estai dedemenon en tois ouranois,
and what if you might bind on the land will be having been bound in the heavens,

kai o ean lusus epi tes ges estai lelumenon et tois ouranois.
and what if you might loose on the land will be having been loosed in the heavens.

(You will note that St Matthew 18:18 is similarly phrased).

This is not the casual relationship that EVERY translation implies; that is, if the Disciples
forgive them, they will be forgiven. No -- indeed -- it indicates that if the Disciples deem
them forgiven, it is simply because they were already forgiven in heaven, as per the passive
past perfect tense of the Greek clearly indicates.

St John 20:23 is similarly written:

[...He said...'Receive the Holy Spirit.] an tinon aphute tas amartias apheontai autois,
...of whom you might send off the sins they have been sent off to them,

an tinon kratute kekratuntai.
of whom you might hold they have been held.

Again, the sins in question have already been determined forgiven or not is clearly
indicated by the careful grammar of the Greek and is totally concordant with the Matthian
reading.

Nemesio”

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So you see, we don’t really know. Even if we were somehow able to determine the true meanings of the original authors, it still comes down to taking somebody else’s word. This is not proof and therefore not faith.

True faith in God can only be had by direct experience.

Psalm 33:13-15 “The Lord looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men. From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth. He fashioned their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.”

Originally posted by The Chess Express
"...he considereth all there works.”[/b]

Eep. Surely you intended "their".

Originally posted by bbarr
Eep. Surely you intended "their".

Got it. 🙂