Originally posted by Starrman
I'm not sure it's that simple. Firstly, since I don't believe heaven and hell exist, I'm not prepared to give a definition of them, consequently it would be hard to say what did and did not cause access to one or the other. Secondly, as a relativist, it would be impossible for me to draw a line at exactly where the division between forgiveable and unforgi ...[text shortened]... ical and sexual) might fit the bill, but I couldn't close a definite boundary around them.

As far as what "sin" will keep you out of heaven it is apparent to me that as "sinners" we have our own brand of what is over the top and will keep you out of heaven than that of a holy God who cannot be apart of so much as the smallest sin.

For example, we all lie. It then seems to me that we become aquainted with this sin. It is familiar to us and, therefore, deem it to be one of the lesser sins. After all, no one likes being told we are wrong or that we are bad. If we then were to admit that lying is really, really bad it would be a type of self incrimination and, as a result, we avoid condeming it as such. However, murder is a different story. Hopefully, there are few here that have done such a thing. If we have never murdered anyone our conscience is then free to point the finger at others whom have commited this crime and say that perhaps that is an act that could keep one out of heaven. However, if you are a hit man, chances are that you might say it is no big deal, I do it every day. Perhaps you would say something like, "Its just business", so don't take it personally. In other words, don't condemn me for what I want to or feel I need to do. You might even say that you can still make it into heaven because you belong to a church or something or say that God understands what I must do or even delude yourself into thinking they really deserved such a fate.

These are just observations that I have made regarding how the human mind deals with what we know to be "sins". They are defense mechanisms that allow our conscience to help free itself of unwanted guilt.

Originally posted by whodey
Just to let you know this differs from the Christian tradition in that doing "goodies" does not get you into heaven nor does simply believing in God. Salvation is said to be a gift from God as a result of his grace lest any man should boast. Also it says in James that demons also believe in God, however, it does not save them. You must accept Christ as Lor ...[text shortened]... more question, however. Is Allah regarded by Mohammad as being holy as is the Christian God?

We talked before about that many times , and from our conversation and from my readings in the Bible I didn't see any thing that support this tradition. In contrary, I found many places in the Bible that meets Islamic faith (See Ezekiel 18 for example).


It does seem odd to me, however, that Allah is more concerned with those who worship other gods than with those who are altogether devoid of religion and care nothing about seeking him in any way.

Who said that? By the way Allah is the name of GOD in Aramitic language (The language of Jesus Christ)..


I do have one more question, however. Is Allah regarded by Mohammad as being holy as is the Christian God?

I don't know exactly what do you mean by Holy. I think this link might help you understand how muslims view GOD:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Names_of_God_in_the_Qur%27an

Originally posted by ahosyney
or to worship someone else.

Such as Jesus?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Such as Jesus?

For Muslims , yes

Originally posted by ahosyney
For Muslims , yes

So, you think all Christians are going to hell?

Originally posted by whodey
We have a thread on who is going to hell so why not heaven? Well, lets hear it, who is going or don't you know?

http://www.playtheimmortalgame.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=63855&page=1

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
So, you think all Christians are going to hell?

I think the answer is obvious. This question doesn't appear to me as a question at all.

Although not all Chrsitians belive that Jesus is GOD. At least in the first two centuries.

Another important point I can't Judge any person and no one can. I can't tell you that I'm sure that a specific person will be in hell and another one will be in heaven. No one can. It depends on what Allah only knows. What is inside hearts. And he is the only one who decide not me. But if a person dies while worshiping something else other than Allah he will be in Hell as Allah said in his books.

Originally posted by whodey
We have a thread on who is going to hell so why not heaven? Well, lets hear it, who is going or don't you know?

Heaven. Heaven is a place. A place where nothing. Nothing ever happens.

- The talking heads -

Originally posted by ahosyney
I think the answer is obvious. This question doesn't appear to me as a question at all.

Although not all Chrsitians belive that Jesus is GOD. At least in the first two centuries.

Another important point I can't Judge any person and no one can. I can't tell you that I'm sure that a specific person will be in hell and another one will be in heaven. No o ...[text shortened]... le worshiping something else other than Allah he will be in Hell as Allah said in his books.

Well, there you have it --- a counterexample to Pascal's Wager.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Well, there you have it --- a counterexample to Pascal's Wager.

It was the first time to know about Pascal's Wager , thank you for that.

But I can't find the relation between what I said and Pascal's Wager. Can you help me to clearfy that.

Originally posted by ahosyney
It was the first time to know about Pascal's Wager , thank you for that.

But I can't find the relation between what I said and Pascal's Wager. Can you help me to clearfy that.

Sure.

Pascal's Wager reasons that it is better to believe in God than to reject him, modeling it as a decision under uncertainty in which your expected value of choosing to believe is infinite, while your expected value of choosing to reject is negative.

One of the many flaws of Pascal's wager is that it only considers one God. For example, one could apply Pascal's reasoning and conclude that one ought to believe in the Christian God and no other God.

Now, you come along and tell me that if I believe in the Christian God instead of Allah, I will go to hell, and if I believe in Allah and no other Gods, I will go to heaven. Applying Pascal's reasoning again, this time I have to conclude that the correct decision is to believe in Allah and no other God.

Since Pascal's reasoning leads to a contradiction -- it is best to believe in the Christian God, and it is best to reject the Christian God -- the reasoning itself must be fallacious.

In short, one can demonstrate the silliness of Pascal's Wager by simply positing the existence of crueler and crueler Gods who do worse and worse things to non-believers, and anybody who holds to Pascal's wager must continually reject the old ones and believe in the new ones.