There is another expression of interest in verse six -
"Crucifying again for themselves the Son of God and putting Him to open shame."
So have said that to fall is to crucify he Son of God again. It is impossible for anyone to re-crucify Jesus. Who can crucify the Lord Jesus Christ again ?
The work of Christ has been accomplished once for all. He was not like the Old Testament bull and goat, which must be slaughtered when they were needed.
On the redeemed sinner's side he cannot be renew this basic repentance which is part of the foundation beginning - " ... a foundation of repentance from dead works ...". On the side of Christ He cannot renew crucifixion. If that were the case, then we would be putting the Lord to open shame. The person so re-crucifying the Lord would be saying that the one time crucifixion of Christ was not enough, that there were the need for more crucifixions.
It is not necessary.
It is not right.
It is not possible.
Any thought that to be saved from eternal perdition Jesus Christ has to be crucified multiple times is ludicrous. So this passage is not about salvation from eternal perdition.
The one time death and resurrection of Jesus is a fact that cannot be overturned. And that He said "It is finished" for man's eternal redemption is a fact that cannot be overturned. Any thought that He need to be crucified again makes His finished work of redemption still not yet finished.
If there is a fallen or backslidden Christian then or now, who was once clearly saved and was clear about his salvation, for him to rise up again does not require a fresh start in the rudimentary and foundational truths of the Gospel. There is no possibility and no need for him to crucify the Lord Jesus again and put Him to open shame.
Laying the foundation again includes crucifying the Lord again. That is impossible.
Laying the foundation again is something we have no right to do. The chapter is about progress as a Christian and not the rudimentary procedure to be saved, or re-saved as if Christ's work was incomplete or not effective.
"For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened ... and yet have fallen away, to renew themselves AGAIN unto repentance, crucifying again for themselves the Son of God and putting Him to open shame."
If it is impossible for a backslidden Christian to repent[b] in an ongoing way, not calling for the FOUNDATION to be re-lain then we would not see Jesus telling the churching Christians to [b]repent many times in the book of Revelation.
To the Christians in the church in Ephesus - " I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place, unless you repent." (Rev. 2:5c)
What happened to it being impossible for them to repent ?
To the Christians in the church in Pergamos -
" Repent therefore; but if not, I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war with them with the sword of My mouth." (Rev. 2:16)
What happened to the impossibility of them repenting ?
To the church in Thytira -
"And I gave her time that she might repent, and she is not willing to repent of her fornication. Behold, I cast her into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her, into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works." (Rev. 2:21,22)
She is punished by being thrown into a bed of sickness not the lake of fire. And why does Jesus demand repentance if it is impossible for her to repent.
The fornicating ones involved with her are commanded to repent. What happened to the impossibility of them repenting ?
These instances of the need to repent do not refer to attempting to begin again with the foundation of repentance from dead works and faith in God. But they do require a changing of the direction of the mind which often a Christian must do, confessing his sins ( 1 John 1:9,10) .
How long was the Holy Spirit to be given to the believers? This is important because Hebrews 6 says that some of the fallen away ones had become "partakers of the Holy Spirit" .
According to the Gospel of John Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to be in the believers "FOREVER". That is not until they sinned. That is not until they fell away. That is not as a LOAN to be returned. He gave them the Holy Spirit to be with them from now on - forever.
"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever,
Even the Spirit of reality ..." (John 14:15,16a)
Once a human being has become a partaker of the Holy Spirit he will never for eternity become NO LONGER a partaker of the Holy Spirit. This proves that eternal perdition cannot be what the writer of Hebrews is speaking of as a penalty for falling away.
Rajk999's false teaching is that the Holy Spirit was LOANED to the disciples on a temporary basis.
Again, the writer of Hebrews says the fallen away ones became partakers of the Holy Spirit -
"For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened ... and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit ... to renew themselves again unto repentance ..."
For HOW long was the Holy Spirit to be with the saved believers ?
He was given to be with them "forever" (John 14:16).
He is given to be with them TO a certain point and beyond that point forever. What is the point TO which the Holy Spirit is given to the disciples ?
He is given as a pledge UNTIL the day of the glorification of their bodies - "the redemption of the body" .
" In whom you also ... were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the acquired possession ..." (Eph. 1:13,14)
The Holy Spirit is a pledge, a guarantee of the inevitable redemption of the whole man including his body.
This Holy Spirit is a pledge and a living seal to all believers -
"But the One who firmly attaches us with you unto Christ and has anointed us is God, He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." (2 Cor. 1:21,22)
The seal is eternal.
The pledge is eternal.
The seal and pledge are unto the redemption of the acquired possession."
So each saved person is a partaker of the Holy Spirit unto that point and beyond forever.
The One who has wrought this is God Himself -
[quote " Now He who has wrought us for this very thing is God, who has goven to us the Spirit as a pledge." (2 Cor. 5:5)
Rajk999 is teaching that the "pledge" is no pledge.
This is heretical.
The Holy Spirit is given unto and beyond the "redemption of our body"
" For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails together until now.
And not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body." ( Rom. 8:2,23)
There indeed will be ups and downs. It is through much tribulation that we enter into the kingdom of God (Acts 14:22) . And on the way the Holy Spirit within the saved ones intercedes for them according to God's will. But we are partakers of this Holy Spirit permanently forever.
-Removed-
I'm not getting into this thread in a big way because it (this debate, although an important topic) bores the pants off me, BUT I'm going to have to call you on Ananias and Sapphira; please demonstrate how you feel they "clearly" will not receive eternal life?
Like those who seem bored with having to go through the assurance of eternal salvation, so the writer of Hebrews 6 also wanted his audience to go on.
"For when because of the time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you what the rudiments of the beginning of the oracles of God are ..." (Heb. 5:12)
He also said that the audience had become "dull of hearing" and because of that they had difficulty progressing on to other matters.
"Being addressed by God as a High Priest according to the order of Melchisedec; concerning whom we have much to say that is also difficult to interpret since you have become dull of hearing." (5:10,11)
It is with no particular delight on my part that these matters have to be defended. But Hebrews 6 can be a difficult chapter for some to understand. Therefore I labor on it (again) to defend against some misunderstandings.
-Removed-Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit. This is blasphemy [check the meaning]
Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
If you want to believe that all you do is accept Christ with your mouth, then proceed to lie, cheat etc etc, and you will still be in Gods Kingdom then ... good for you .. you enjoy a life of delusion..
Originally posted by Rajk999
Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit. This is blasphemy [check the meaning]
Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
So here Rajk999 decides that by making the sin of Ananias and Sapphira blashemy he hopes they will never be forgiven.
There is nothing in the book of Acts that says they blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. Now I have already proved that the Holy Spirit is given to the disciples to be with them forever (John 14:16) .
He comes not as a temporary LOAN but to be an organic part of the believer - "JOINED to the Lord" .
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17) .
That means that the human spirit and God the Holy Spirit united to be one mingled spirit.
But the New Testament speaks of the possibility that a Christian would GRIEVE the Holy Spirit. To grieve someone is a matter of love. It does not speak of the making the Holy Spirit angry but of grieving Him.
The Bible says we Christians should not grieve the Holy Spirit.
" And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph. 4:30)
Grief is an expression of love.
Anger is an expression of hate.
Wherever there is love, there is grief. It is true that both anger and grief come from mistakes. Alright we may say that both anger and grief can come from sins. In both cases they are caused by mistakes.
Ananias and Sapphire probably grieved the Holy Spirit.
God the Father disciplines every son that comes to Him.
His discipline is not to disown them as no longer His sons.
But it may include some hard discipline of love.
If there is hate involved from God then it is a matter of anger.
If you hate someone you will view their mistakes with hatred.
With someone you love the result is different. Ephesians 4:20 speaks not of angering the Holy Spirit but of grieving the Holy Spirit. That is because God loves all of His sons. And the sons who fall into sin or backslide may grieve His heart of love. But He does not turn to hate them or disown them as no longer His sons.
Rather His discipline is a sign of His love.
" ... My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor faith when reproved by Him; For whom the Lord LOVES ... He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives." (Hebrews 12:5,6)
Ananias and Sapphire may have undergone a very strict discipline in that thei physical lives were terminated. But it was a case of them grieving the Lord within such a pure church life that they were made an example. They had lied to the apostles trying to deceive them and were found lying to God the Holy Spirit who was in the apostles AND in themselves as well.
There is no blasphemy mentioned in connection to this occasion.
The word does not say not to anger the Holy Spirit. Rather, it says not to grieve the Holy Spirit. He is not upon us only. He is IN us (the Christians). When He sees a failure He grieves because the Triune God loves us the Christians. But He does not LEAVE us. He will not go away. As a seal He will be with the saints including Ananias and Sapphire until the day of redemption.
That is true unless Ananias and Sapphire were false believers. I don't think there is anything in the account of Acts which indicates that they were phoney believers. But they were phony in that they pretended unnecessarily to be more liberal with their possessions then they really were.
Originally posted by sonshipYeah right. Ananias and sapphira struck down dead is a good thing.
[quote] [b] Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit. This is blasphemy [check the meaning]
Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: [ ...[text shortened]... pretended unnecessarily to be more liberal with their possessions then they really were.
Funny .
Got that from the council of God? Bruceman nee?