1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    24 Apr '09 15:56
    "...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever...if you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

    "Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven...Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'"

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In the above Jesus is quoted as using the word sin , however , in Judaism and Hebrew my understanding is that there are differing catagories of sin and different words for sin that describe various levels or seriousness of sin and behaviour.

    chet, pesha, avone, ashma, aveira


    So which of these applies to the verses above? Could Jesus have been using a word that meant "all" sins (in an all encompassing sense)? Or did such a word exist? I think Jesus spoke Aramaic so that might complicate things - anybody know? - answers welcome from Atheists and Theists.
  2. Joined
    01 Dec '07
    Moves
    1970
    24 Apr '09 16:32
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    "...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever...if you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

    "Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father w ...[text shortened]... at might complicate things - anybody know? - answers welcome from Atheists and Theists.
    Kingmeister. May I suggest, when quoting God's Word, reference the biblical version i.e. King James, NIV, etc..., which book within the bible i.e. Genesis, Revelation, etc..., chapter and verse.

    John 8:34 NASB - In this context sin is used as a generic term (distinct from specific terms such as hamartema yet sometimes inclusive of concrete wrong doing.) What does hamartema mean? It denotes an act of disobedience to divine law.

    Matt. 7:21-23 NASB - I believe (correct me if i am wrong) the word you are questioning is "iniquity" In this context, iniquity denotes illegality
  3. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    24 Apr '09 16:34
    Originally posted by MrMartin
    Kingmeister. May I suggest, when quoting God's Word, reference the biblical version i.e. King James, NIV, etc..., which book within the bible i.e. Genesis, Revelation, etc..., chapter and verse.

    John 8:34 NASB - In this context sin is used as a generic term (distinct from specific terms such as hamartema yet sometimes inclusive of concrete wrong doing.) ...[text shortened]... rong) the word you are questioning is "iniquity" In this context, iniquity denotes illegality
    Is harmatema a hebrew or aramaic word for sin?
  4. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    24 Apr '09 20:254 edits
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    "...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever...if you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

    "Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father w at might complicate things - anybody know? - answers welcome from Atheists and Theists.
    Errors, Transgressions, Trespasses. The Scriptures frequently link “error” (Heb., awon), “transgression” (Heb., pesha; Gr. parabasis), “trespass” (Gr., paraptoma), and other such terms with “sin” (Heb., chattath; Gr. hamartia). All such related terms present specific aspects of sin, forms that it takes.

    Errors, mistakes, and foolishness. Thus, awon basically relates to erring, acting crookedly or wrongly. The Hebrew term refers to a moral error or wrong, a distortion of what is right. (Job 10:6, 14, 15) Those not submitting to Gods will obviously are not guided by his perfect wisdom and justice, hence are bound to err. (Compare Isa 59:1-3; Jer 14:10; Php 2:15.) Doubtless because sin causes man to be off balance, distorting what is upright (Job 33:27; Hab 1:4), awon is the Hebrew term most frequently linked with or used in parallel with chattath (sin, missing the mark). (Ex 34:9; De 19:15; Ne 4:5; Ps 32:5; 85:2; Isa 27:9) This imbalance produces confusion and disharmony within man and difficulties in his dealings with God and with the rest of God’s creation.

    The “error” (awon) may be intentional or unintentional, either a conscious deviation from what is right or an unknowing act, a “mistake” (sheghaghah), which, nevertheless, brings the person into error and guilt before God. (Le 4:13-35; 5:1-6, 14-19; Nu 15:22-29; Ps 19:12, 13) If intentional, then, of course, the error is of far graver consequence than if by mistake. (Nu 15:30, 31; compare La 4:6, 13, 22.) Error is contrary to truth, and those willfully sinning pervert the truth, a course which only brings forth grosser sin. (Compare Isa 5:18-23.) The apostle Paul speaks of “the deceptive power of sin,” which has a hardening effect on human hearts. (Heb 3:13-15; compare Ex 9:27, 34, 35.) The same writer, in quoting from Jeremiah 31:34, where the Hebrew original spoke of Israel’s “error” and “sin,” wrote hamartia (sin) and adikia (unrighteousness) at Hebrews 8:12, and hamartia and anomia (lawlessness) at Hebrews 10:17.
    Proverbs 24:9 states that “the loose conduct of foolishness is sin,” and Hebrew terms conveying the idea of foolishness are often used in connection with sinning, the sinner at times repentantly acknowledging, “I have acted foolishly.” (1Sa 26:21; 2Sa 24:10, 17) Undisciplined by God, the sinner gets tangled up in his errors and foolishly goes astray.—Pr 5:22, 23; compare 19:3.

    Transgression, an “overstepping.” Sin may take the form of a “transgression.” The Greek parabasis (transgression) refers basically to an “overstepping,” that is, going beyond certain limits or boundaries, especially as in breaking a law. Matthew uses the verb form (parabaino) in recounting the question of the Pharisees and scribes as to why Jesus disciples ‘overstepped the tradition of men of former times,’ and Jesus counterquestion as to why these opposers ‘overstepped the commandment of God because of their tradition,’ by which they made Gods word invalid. (Mt 15:1-6) It also can mean a “stepping aside,” as in Judas’ ‘deviating’ from his ministry and apostleship. (Ac 1:25) In some Greek texts the same verb is used when referring to one who “goes beyond, and does not abide in the doctrine of the Anointed one.”—2Jo 9

    In the Hebrew Scriptures there are similar references to sinning by persons who “overstepped,” ‘sidestepped,’ “bypassed,” or ‘passed beyond’ (Heb., avar) Gods covenant or specific orders.—Nu 14:41; De 17:2, 3; Jos 7:11, 15; 1Sa 15:24; Isa 24:5; Jer 34:18.

    The apostle Paul shows the special connection of parabasis with violation of established law in saying that “where there is no law, neither is there any transgression.” (Ro 4:15) Hence, in the absence of law the sinner would not be called a “transgressor.” Consistently, Paul and the other Christian writers use parabasis (and parabates, “transgressor&rdquo😉 in the context of law. (Compare Ro 2:23-27; Ga 2:16, 18; 3:19; Jas 2:9, 11.) Adam, having received a direct command from God, was therefore guilty of “transgression” of stated law. His wife, though deceived, was also guilty of transgression of that law. (1Ti 2:14) The Law covenant spoken to Moses by angels was added to the Abrahamic covenant “to make transgressions manifest,” that ‘all things together might be delivered up to the custody of sin,’ legally convicting all of Adams descendants, Israel included, of sin, and demonstrating that all clearly needed forgiveness and salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. (Ga 3:19-22) Thus, if Paul had put himself back under the Mosaic Law, he would have made himself a “transgressor” again of that Law, subject to its condemnation, and would thereby have shoved aside the undeserved kindness of God that provided release from that condemnation.—Ga 2:18-21; compare 3:1-4, 10.

    The Hebrew pesha carries the idea of transgression (Ps 51:3; Isa 43:25-27; Jer 33:8) as well as that of “revolt,” which is a turning away from, or rejection of, the law or authority of another. (1Sa 24:11; Job 13:23, 24; 34:37; Isa 59:12, 13) Willful transgression, then, amounts to rebellion against God’s paternal rule and authority. It sets the will of the creature against that of the Creator, and so he indulges in revolt against God’s sovereignty, His supreme rulership.

    Trespass. The Greek paraptoma means, literally, “a fall beside,” hence a false step (Ro 11:11, 12) or blunder, a “trespass.” (Eph 1:7; Col 2:13) Adams sin in eating the forbidden fruit was a “transgression” in that he overstepped Gods law; it was a “trespass” in that he fell or made a false step instead of standing or walking upright in harmony with Gods righteous requirements and in support of His authority. The many statutes and requirements of the Law covenant in effect opened the way for many such trespasses because of the imperfection of those subject to it (Ro 5:20); the nation of Israel as a whole blundered as to keeping that covenant. (Ro 11:11, 12) Since all the various statutes of that Law were part of one covenant, the person making “a false step” in one point thereby became an offender and “transgressor” against the covenant as a whole and hence against all its statutes.—Jas 2:10, 11.

    “Sinners.” Since “there is no man that does not sin” (2Ch 6:36), all of Adams descendants can properly be termed “sinners” by nature. But in the Scriptures “sinners” usually applies in a more specific way, designating those who practice sin or who have a reputation of sinning. Their sins have become public knowledge. (Lu 7:37-39) The Amalekites, whom God ordered Saul to destroy, are called “sinners” (1Sa 15:18); the psalmist prayed that God would not take away his soul “along with sinners,” his following words identifying such as “bloodguilty men, in whose hands there is loose conduct, and whose right hand is full of bribery.” (Ps 26:9, 10; compare Pr 1:10-19.) Jesus was condemned by religious leaders for associating with “tax collectors and sinners,” and tax collectors were viewed by the Jews as a generally disreputable class. (Mt 9:10, 11) Jesus referred to them along with harlots as preceding the Jewish religious leaders in entry into the Kingdom. (Mt 21:31, 32) Zacchaeus, a tax collector and a “sinner” in the eyes of many, acknowledged that he had illegally extorted money from others.—Lu 19:7, 8.
    Hence, when Jesus said “there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner that repents than over ninety-nine righteous ones who have no need of repentance,” he was evidently using these terms in a relative sense, for all men are by nature sinners and none are righteous in the absolute sense.—Lu 15:7, 10; compare Lu 5:32; 13:2;

    Comparative Gravity of Wrongdoing. Although sin is sin, and in any case could justly make the guilty one worthy of sins “wages,” death, the Scriptures show that God views mankind’s wrongdoing as varying in degrees of gravity. Thus, the men of Sodom were “gross sinners against God,” and their sin was “very heavy.” (Ge 13:13; 18:20; compare 2Ti 3:6, 7.) The Israelites’ making a golden calf was also called “a great sin” (Ex 32:30, 31), and Jeroboams calf worship similarly caused those of the northern kingdom “to sin with a great sin.” (2Ki 17:16, 21) Judahs sin became “like that of Sodom,” making the kingdom of Judah abhorrent in God’s eyes. (Isa 1:4, 10; 3:9; La 1:8; 4:6) Such a course of disregard for God’s will can make even one’s very prayer become a sin. (Ps 109:7, 8, 14) Since sin is an affront to Gods own person, he is not indifferent to it; as its gravity increases, his indignation and wrath are understandably increased. (Ro 1:18; De 29:22-28; Job 42:7; Ps 21:8, 9) His wrath, however, is not solely due to the involvement of his own person but is likewise stirred by the injury and injustice done to humans and particularly to his faithful servants.—Isa 10:1-4; Mal 2:13-16; 2Th 1:6-10.

    Human weakness and ignorance. God takes into account the weakness of imperfect men descended from Adam, so that those sincerely seeking Him can say, “He has not done to us even according to our sins; nor according to our errors has he brought upon us what we deserve.” The Scriptures show the wonderful mercy and loving-kindness that God has displayed in his patient dealings with men of flesh. (Ps 103:2, 3, 10-18) He also takes into account ignorance as a contributory factor in sins (1Ti 1:13; compare Lu 12:47, 48), provided such ignorance is not willful. Those who willfully reject the knowledge and wisdom God offers, ‘taking pleasure in unrighteousness,’ are not excused. (2Th 2:9-12; Pr 1:22-33; Ho 4:6-8) Some are temporarily misled from the truth but, with help, turn back (Jas 5:19, 20), while others ‘shut their eyes to the light and forget their earlier cleansing from sins.’—2Pe 1:9.
  5. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    24 Apr '09 20:262 edits
    Single sin versus practice of sin. John also makes a distinction between a single sin and the practice of sinning as is shown by a comparison of 1 John 2:1 and 3:4-8. As to the correctness of the rendering “everyone who practices sin [poion ten hamartian]” (1Jo 3:4), Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament (1933, Vol. VI, p. 221) says: “The present active participle (poion) means the habit of doing sin.” As to 1 John 3:6, where the phrase oukh hamartanei is used in the Greek text, the same scholar comments (p. 222): “Linear present . . . active indicative of hamartano, ‘does not keep on sinning.’” Thus, the faithful Christian may at some time lapse or fall into sin because of weakness or being misled, but he “does not carry on sin,” continuing to walk in it.—1Jo 3:9, 10; compare 1Co 15:33, 34; 1Ti 5:20.

    Sharing in the sins of others. A person can become guilty of sin before God by his willing association with wrongdoers, by his approval of their wrongdoing, or by his covering over their conduct so that the elders do not know about it and take appropriate action. (Compare Ps 50:18, 21; 1Ti 5:22.) Those who stay in the symbolic city “Babylon the Great” therefore also “receive part of her plagues.” (Re 18:2, 4-8) A Christian associating with or even saying “a greeting” to one who abandons the teaching of the Christ becomes “a sharer in his wicked works.”—2Jo 9-11;

    Timothy was warned by Paul against being “a sharer in the sins of others.” (1Ti 5:22) Paul’s preceding words as to ‘never laying hands hastily upon any man’ must refer to the authority granted Timothy to appoint overseers in congregations. He was not to appoint a newly converted man, for such a one might get puffed up with pride; if Timothy failed to heed this counsel, he would reasonably bear a measure of the responsibility for whatever wrongs such a one might commit.—1Ti 3:6.

    An entire nation could become guilty of sin before God on the basis of the above principles.—Pr 14:34.

    Sins Against Men, God, and Christ. As shown earlier, the Hebrew Scriptures record references to sin by men of different nations during the patriarchal period. Mainly these related to sins against other humans. Since God alone is the standard of righteousness and goodness, sins committed against humans are not failures to conform to such persons image and likeness,’ but they are a failure to respect or care for their rightful and proper interests, thus committing offense against them, causing them unjust damage. (Jg 11:12, 13, 27; 1Sa 19:4, 5; 20:1; 26:21; Jer 37:18; 2Co 11:7) Jesus set forth the guiding principles for a person to follow if certain serious sins were committed against him. (Mt 18:15-17) Even though one’s brother sinned against him 77 times or 7 times in a single day, such an offender was to be forgiven if, upon being rebuked, he showed repentance. (Mt 18:21, 22; Lu 17:3, 4; compare 1Pe 4:8.) Peter speaks of house servants being slapped for sins committed against their owners. (1Pe 2:18-20) One can sin against constituted authority by failing to show it due respect. Paul declared himself innocent of any sin “against the Law of the Jews [or] against the temple [or] against Caesar.”—Ac 25:8.
    Sins against humans, nevertheless, are also sins against the Creator, to whom men must make an accounting. (Ro 14:10, 12; Eph 6:5-9; Heb 13:17) God, who held Abimelech back from having relations with Sarah, told the Philistine king, “I was also holding you back from sinning against me.” (Ge 20:1-7) Joseph likewise recognized that adultery was a sin against the Creator of male and female and against the Former of the marriage union (Ge 39:7-9), as did King David. (2Sa 12:13; Ps 51:4) Such sins as robbery, defrauding, or embezzlement of anothers property are classified in the Law as ‘unfaithful behavior toward God(Le 6:2-4; Nu 5:6-8) Those hardening their hearts and being closefisted toward their poor brothers and those withholding mens wages were subject to divine reproof. (De 15:7-10; 24:14, 15; compare Pr 14:31; Am 5:12.) Samuel declared it unthinkable, on his part, “to sin against by ceasing to pray” on behalf of his fellow Israelites and at their request.—1Sa 12:19-23.

    Similarly, James 2:1-9 condemns as sin the showing of favoritism or the making of class distinctions among Christians. Paul says that those paying no heed to the weak consciences of their brothers and thus causing such to stumble are “sinning against Christ,” God’s Son who gave his own lifeblood for his followers.—1Co 8:10-13.

    Thus, while all sins in reality are sins against God, he views some sins as more directly against his own person, sins such as idolatry (Ex 20:2-5; 2Ki 22:17), faithlessness (Ro 14:22, 23; Heb 10:37, 38; 12:1), disrespect for sacred things (Nu 18:22, 23), and all forms of false worship (Ho 8:11-14). This is doubtless why the high priest Eli told his sons, who disrespected Gods tabernacle and service: “If a man should sin against a man, God will arbitrate for him [compare 1Ki 8:31, 32]; but if it is against God that a man should sin, who is there to pray for him?”—1Sa 2:22-25;

    Sinning against one’s own body. In warning against fornication (sex relations outside of Scripturally approved marriage), Paul states that “every other sin that a man may commit is outside his body, but he that practices fornication is sinning against his own body.” (1Co 6:18) The context shows that Paul had been emphasizing that Christians were to be united with their Lord and Head, Christ Jesus. (1Co 6:13-15) The fornicator wrongly and sinfully becomes one flesh with another. (1Co 6:16-18) Since no other sin can thus separate the body of the Christian from union with Christ and make it “one” with another, this is evidently why all other sins are here viewed as ‘outside one’s body.’ Fornication can also result in incurable damage to the fornicator’s own body.

    Avoidance of Sin. Love of God and of neighbor is a principal means for avoiding sin, which is lawlessness, for love is an outstanding quality of God; he made love the foundation of his Law to Israel. (Mt 22:37-40; Ro 13:8-11) In this way Christians can be, not alienated from God, but in joyful union with him and his Son. (1Jo 1:3; 3:1-11, 24; 4:16) Such are open to the guidance of Gods holy spirit and can “live as to the spirit from the standpoint of God,” desisting from sins (1Pe 4:1-6) and producing the righteous fruitage of Gods spirit in place of the wicked fruitage of the sinful flesh. (Ga 5:16-26) They can thus gain freedom from sins mastery.—Ro 6:12-22.

    Having faith in Gods sure reward for righteousness (Heb 11:1, 6), one can resist the call of sin to share its temporary enjoyment. (Heb 11:24-26) Since “God is not one to be mocked,” a person knows the inescapability of the rule that “whatever a man is sowing, this he will also reap,” and he is protected against the deceitfulness of sin. (Ga 6:7, 8) He realizes that sins cannot remain forever hidden (1Ti 5:24) and that “although a sinner may be doing bad a hundred times and continuing a long time as he pleases,” yet it will “turn out well with those fearing the true God,” but not with the wicked one who is not in fear of God. (Ec 8:11-13; compare Nu 32:23; Pr 23:17, 18.) Any material riches the wicked have gained will buy them no protection from God (Zep 1:17, 18), and indeed, in time the sinners wealth will prove to be “something treasured up for the righteous one.” (Pr 13:21, 22; Ec 2:26) Those who pursue righteousness by faith can avoid carrying the “heavy load” that sin brings, the loss of peace of mind and heart, the weakness of spiritual sickness.—Ps 38:3-6, 18; 41:4.

    Knowledge of God’s word is the basis for such faith and the means of fortifying it. (Ps 119:11; compare Ps 106:7.) The person who moves hastily without first seeking knowledge as to his path will ‘miss the mark,’ sinning. (Pr 19:2, ftn) Realizing that “one sinner can destroy much good” causes the righteous person to seek to act with genuine wisdom. (Compare Ec 9:18; 10:1-4.) It is the wise course to avoid association with those practicing false worship and immorally inclined persons, for these entrap one in sin and spoil useful habits.—Ex 23:33; Ne 13:25, 26; Ps 26:9-11; Pr 1:10-19; Ec 7:26; 1Co 15:33, 34.
    There are, of course, many things that can be done or not done, or that can be done one way or another, without any condemnation of sin. (Compare 1Co 7:27, 28.) God did not hem man in with multitudinous instructions governing minute details as to how things were to be done.

    Clearly, man was to use his intelligence, and he was also given ample latitude to display his individual personality and preferences. The Law covenant contained many statutes; yet even this did not rob men of their freedom of personal expression. Christianity, with its strong emphasis on love of God and neighbor as the guiding rule, similarly allows men the widest possible freedom that persons with righteously inclined hearts could desire.—Compare Mt 22:37-40; Ro 8:21
  6. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    24 Apr '09 20:461 edit
    knock yourself out km, anything you find objectionable, let jaywill know, he will explain everything! na only kidding, see how you get on, let me know - regards robbie.

    The materials contained on this post are provided for general information only and do not constitute any form of advice. robbie carrobie assumes no responsibility for the accuracy of any particular statement and accepts no liability for any loss or damage which may arise from reliance on the information contained in this post. robbie carrobie is in no way to be regarded as the author of this information, all sources are from an undisclosed third party and will remain as such.
  7. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
    Uk
    Joined
    21 Jan '06
    Moves
    443
    25 Apr '09 07:25
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    [b]Single sin versus practice of sin. John also makes a distinction between a single sin and the practice of sinning as is shown by a comparison of 1 John 2:1 and 3:4-8. As to the correctness of the rendering “everyone who practices sin [poion ten hamartian]” (1Jo 3:4), Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament (1933, Vol. VI, p. 221) says: ...[text shortened]... freedom that persons with righteously inclined hearts could desire.—Compare Mt 22:37-40; Ro 8:21[/b]
    This is really quite useful. Thanks mate. However , what I am interested in is the actual Hebrew words that Jesus would have used in these passages - for example - was there a word in hebrew for just "sin" in a general sense - or was it impossible to talk about "sin" in general terms without being specific about it.

    Also is there a distinction between "committing" sin (as in deliberate acts of wickedness ) and sins that occur as a result of our fallen nature.
  8. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    25 Apr '09 08:45
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    This is really quite useful. Thanks mate. However , what I am interested in is the actual Hebrew words that Jesus would have used in these passages - for example - was there a word in hebrew for just "sin" in a general sense - or was it impossible to talk about "sin" in general terms without being specific about it.

    Also is there a distinction betw ...[text shortened]... s in deliberate acts of wickedness ) and sins that occur as a result of our fallen nature.
    hi Knightmeister, it is relatively easy to find out the Greek word that Christ used for sin in this context, as for the Hebrew word, i do not know if it possible. i have many translations at home, i will check them out, perhaps the Jerusalem Bible. Also most of the Hebrew lexicons and interlinear that i have are for the 'old testament', there are none that i know of for the 'new testament', for this was as you are aware was written in Greek, a language which Christ surely would have been familiar with, it being the international language of the time.

    if you want to find the Greek word for anything try www.e-sword.net/ , its a free program and has a rather excellent explanation of Greek terms although the English translation that is used seems very archaic.

    the word translated sin in this verse (john 8:34) is hamartia which according to e-sword comes from a root verb hamartano, properly to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), that is, (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin: - for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.

    i gave my Vines Expository to someone else so i cannot really expand on this at present other than what has been stated already

    Yes, there is a clear distinction between between deliberate sins and those of an involuntary nature the result of inherited imperfection and Adamic sin, perhaps this is what you are really trying to explore and establish and i have burdened you with a plethora of irrelevant material.

    Its really quite interesting and should be examined and the truth established.
    🙂
  9. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
    Joined
    09 Sep '01
    Moves
    26187
    25 Apr '09 12:19
    The legacy of the Tower of Babel at work. Not only can mankind not understand one another, but they can't even understand the Lord. There's irony for you.
  10. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    26 Apr '09 06:32
    Originally posted by rwingett
    The legacy of the Tower of Babel at work. Not only can mankind not understand one another, but they can't even understand the Lord. There's irony for you.
    hey ringy dude, where you been, zhalanzi has been a poor substitute for your vitriolic accusations. what is not clear in the post and perhaps some Christian brother may help you come to an accurate knowledge of truth, but remember you may need to rid yourself of those haunting preconceptions and prejudices which you have nurtured for so long 😀
  11. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
    Joined
    09 Sep '01
    Moves
    26187
    26 Apr '09 13:30
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    hey ringy dude, where you been, zhalanzi has been a poor substitute for your vitriolic accusations. what is not clear in the post and perhaps some Christian brother may help you come to an accurate knowledge of truth, but remember you may need to rid yourself of those haunting preconceptions and prejudices which you have nurtured for so long 😀
    The OT god, when he had his lengthy chat with Moses on the mountain, presumably spoke Hebrew. When god sent his triune self back to earth to be sacrificed (as Jesus), he spoke Aramaic. When the Lord "confounded the language of all the earth", did he likewise confound himself? Why wouldn't he always speak the same language?

    The practical upshot of god's program of linguistic confusion, as I said, is that not only can mankind not understand each other, but they cannot even understand their own god. Jesus spoke in Aramaic, which, today, is an almost extinct language. What he allegedly said in Aramaic was not written down until several decades later when it was translated into Greek, or Hebrew, or whatever other languages were in use at the time, and then later translated into Latin, Elizabethan English, and finally into modern English.

    Each successive transcription and translation presents an additional level of obfuscation between the modern reader and the original words that Jesus (allegedly) spoke. So today we have threads like this where people like knightmeister are confounded by what Jesus meant when he used the word "sin." Except he never did say that word. He said something in Aramaic which presumably translates into the word "sin." So we have a thriving area of research where people bicker over the correct translations and correct interpretations of what Jesus allegedly said. How close are they to the original? My guess is not very.

    But the whole point of this, really, is to question the wisdom of god confounding the language of all the earth to prevent the building of the tower of Babel. He was successful in that regard. Construction was stopped. But at the same time god effectively distanced mankind from himself by placing a language barrier between them. For a god who allegedly wants people to 'know' him, it seems to have been a counter productive strategy.
  12. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86285
    26 Apr '09 16:03
    welcome back rwinget, where you been, resting after your own creation 'jesus was a socialist'?
  13. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
    Joined
    09 Sep '01
    Moves
    26187
    26 Apr '09 20:49
    Originally posted by divegeester
    welcome back rwinget, where you been, resting after your own creation 'jesus was a socialist'?
    Yes. I needed time to recover from that one.
  14. Standard membertelerion
    True X X Xian
    The Lord's Army
    Joined
    18 Jul '04
    Moves
    8353
    26 Apr '09 21:42
    I predict a rather verbose and convoluted "God works in mysterious ways."
  15. Joined
    02 Aug '06
    Moves
    12622
    27 Apr '09 18:46
    Originally posted by telerion
    I predict a rather verbose and convoluted "God works in mysterious ways."
    What problem do you have with God working sometimes in mysterious ways?

    Have you ever read about the life of Joseph in Genesis?
Back to Top