Holy

Standard membervistesd
Spirituality 12 May '07 05:42
  1. Hmmm . . .
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    12 May '07 05:42
    Many on here have referred to God’s holiness. It has also sometimes been said that because God is holy, God cannot tolerate the presence of anything that is not holy.

    What I would like to hear is some definitions of God’s holiness. (Quotations from the Biblical texts are acceptable as long as they’re on point.)

    The English word has the root meaning of whole or unimpaired.

    The Hebrew word kadosh is sometimes taken to have a root meaning of “separate,” but not all scholars accept this. At the very least it would render God’s omni-presence, as in the following text, paradoxical:

    _______________________________

    [/i]Kadosh kadosh kadosh YHVH tzevaot
    melo kol ha’aretz kevodo.[/i]

    A fairly literal translation—

    “Holy, holy, holy, the One-That-Is, of hosts,
    the fullness of all the earth is his palpable presence.”

    The root meaning of kavod, often translated as “glory,” but in Jewish translations as “presence,” has the root meaning of heaviness or weightiness; hence my adding of the adjective “palpable.”

    melo is a noun, and means fullness—not full.

    _______________________________

    It also seems paradoxical with Jesus, as the Christ, being the incarnate logos tou theou, the logos which is God, making himself freely present to sinners, even eating with them:

    >> NRS Mark 2:16 When the scribes of the Pharisees saw that he was eating with sinners and tax collectors, they said to his disciples, "Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?" 17 When Jesus heard this, he said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I have come to call not the righteous but sinners."

    ______________________________

    Is God’s holiness associated with God’s being all-in-all? With God’s agape? With God’s transcendence? With God’s immanence? With God’s inexorable will? With God’s moral rightness?

    Is God’s holiness separable from any of these?

    If God is agapeis love—how can that agape be intolerant of the presence of even those who are impaired by sinfulness? Does not the physician need to be in the presence of the ill and impaired in order to heal and make them whole?
  2. Standard membershavixmir
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    12 May '07 06:26
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Many on here have referred to God’s holiness. It has also sometimes been said that because God is holy, God cannot tolerate the presence of anything that is not holy.

    What I would like to hear is some [b]definitions
    of God’s holiness. (Quotations from the Biblical texts are acceptable as long as they’re on point.)

    The English word has the root m ...[text shortened]... ian need to be in the presence of the ill and impaired in order to heal and make them whole?[/b]
    There's me thinking that God's holiness was the nail marks in Jesus' hands...
  3. SubscriberWajoma
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    12 May '07 07:30
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    There's me thinking that God's holiness was the nail marks in Jesus' hands...
    http://www.makingdiyeasier.co.uk/unibond/nomorenails.html
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    12 May '07 19:04
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Many on here have referred to God’s holiness. It has also sometimes been said that because God is holy, God cannot tolerate the presence of anything that is not holy.

    What I would like to hear is some [b]definitions
    of God’s holiness. (Quotations from the Biblical texts are acceptable as long as they’re on point.)

    The English word has the root m ...[text shortened]... ian need to be in the presence of the ill and impaired in order to heal and make them whole?[/b]
    I lean towards the Hebrew definition of separate. I disagree that it would render the various texts and obsersavtions you've listed paradoxical.

    I think it is simply stating (and incredibly complicatedly, emphatically demanding) that God is unlike anything in creation. He is the creator. He did not create anything that could compare to Himself or His glory. He is separate. He is different. He is holy.

    The beauty is that He is also intimate. He is completely different and separate, and yet He is involved.

    It is true He will not allow the presence of sin into His holy place. God is omni-present. It seems that this would be difficult to attain. Unless we label His holy place to be a real location, i.e. Heaven.

    As to Jesus being confined to place and time, that is much harder to deal with. Jesus is God. God is immutable. God is omnipresent. God is always omnipresent. Jesus is omnipresent. Uh-oh. Barrier. To be honest, this is still something I'm wrestling with in my theology. I still have many discrepencies I'm working through. I simply don't know. I hope that's ok with you for now. I, however, do not approach the subject as a sceptic, but rather as a believer. Therefore, until I understand, I trust. I don't suspend belief until I understand. Does that make sense? All have so far is Phillipians 2 telling us that Jesus is equal with God, and yet was able lay aside His glory in order to be made in the likeness of man. I don't have a complete grasp on what this means. But, like I said, I am working on it.

    All that aside, I absolutely believe God to be holy, every person of the Godhead. And I define it as: separate, different, unique.
  5. Hmmm . . .
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    13 May '07 03:47
    Originally posted by Big Mac
    I lean towards the Hebrew definition of separate. I disagree that it would render the various texts and obsersavtions you've listed paradoxical.

    I think it is simply stating (and incredibly complicatedly, emphatically demanding) that God is unlike anything in creation. He is the creator. He did not create anything that could compare to Himself or H ...[text shortened]... to be holy, every person of the Godhead. And I define it as: separate, different, unique.
    Thank you for your attempt to grapple with this. And your honesty. I’m not sure that God is “immutable” (though that concept goes back to the earliest post-apostolic church).
  6. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    13 May '07 04:261 edit
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    13 May '07 10:05
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    d'ya think you could simplify that for me?
  8. SubscriberSmookieP
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    13 May '07 10:42
    yea.. WTF?
  9. Illinois
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    13 May '07 22:403 edits
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Many on here have referred to God’s holiness. It has also sometimes been said that because God is holy, God cannot tolerate the presence of anything that is not holy.

    What I would like to hear is some [b]definitions
    of God’s holiness. (Quotations from the Biblical texts are acceptable as long as they’re on point.)

    The English word has the root m ian need to be in the presence of the ill and impaired in order to heal and make them whole?[/b]
    Vistesd, I found this little blurb written by Dr. David F. Wells while perusing the net, which gives an incisive commentary on the significance of God's holiness. It is not a definition per se, but for me it's a good place to start before I attempt the impossible:

    "Divorced from the holiness of God, sin is merely self-defeating behavior or a breach in etiquette. Divorced from the holiness of God, grace is merely empty rhetoric, pious window dressing for the modern technique by which sinners work out their own salvation. Divorced from the holiness of God, our gospel becomes indistinguishable from any of a host of alternative self-help doctrines. Divorced from the holiness of God, our public morality is reduced to little more than an accumulation of trade-offs between competing private interests. Divorced from the holiness of God, our worship becomes mere entertainment. The holiness of God is the very cornerstone of Christian faith, for it is the foundation of reality. Sin is defiance of God's holiness, the Cross is the outworking and victory of God's holiness, and faith is the recognition of God's holiness. Knowing that God is holy is therefore the key to knowing life as it truly is, knowing Christ as he truly is, knowing why he came, and knowing how life will end." --An excerpt from "No Place for Truth: Or whatever Happened to Evangelical Theology"

    (Give me some time to study. I can already tell this will be a great and fruitful subject; one which I admit I need (and desire) to learn more about.)
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