How did it all begin?

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]To use a pure scientific method to a problem of this magnitude is hard, you have to agree. You cannot test the Big Bang. Just like you cannot test for God's existence.

True. That is why I said that with matters of origin it is a matter of faith. I put my faith in God.

. Whether you like to admit it or not, there are many flaws in the concept of God if you're willing enough to consider them.

Could you please enlighten me...[/b]

I can not enlighten you. I think enlightment is a strong word for something as vague as the subject of universe and how it came to existence. I can give you a few questions to ponder, though:

1) Everything we see, hear and experience are based on the principal that everything is created at one time or another. Explain how God can always have existed.
2) If we consider that God really did create the heavens and the earth in seven days, how do you suppose he went about doing that?
3) Exactly where in heaven is God? I mean I've travelled through the skies in an airplane many times and there was no God sitting on a cosy cloud (you could produce an ad hoc, stating that God is not really in heaven, or he is there in a form we cannot sense, but be careful...)
4) When you say that you've experienced God somehow, isn't it possible (in a world full of mysteries) that you're sort of hallucinating? (Don't mean to offend you, just ponder the question.)
5) How did Jesus split the sea? Isn't it all possible, that the followers of Jesus just couldn't admit he was wrong, and they decided to make a cult of it all?

If I accept everything in the bible as true, and that there is a God, and that supernatural things happen (they're not in any way explainable as having natural causes), then I would have to accept the possibility that there are trolls and all kinds of things we cannot detect.

I'm not a complete stranger to that idea. In fact, magicians can easily make us miss things around us, so if God exists, why can't he elude us? I'm just saying that, the bible (with it's seven days of creation) is a little more fantasy, than a theory based on facts that we can observe around us.

Originally posted by Soothing
I can not enlighten you. ...theory based on facts that we can observe around us.

Actually, I believe the question was directed to me, but I concurr... 😀

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]To use a pure scientific method to a problem of this magnitude is hard, you have to agree. You cannot test the Big Bang. Just like you cannot test for God's existence.

True. That is why I said that with matters of origin it is a matter of faith. I put my faith in God. The one that believes in the Big Bang puts his faith in dirt.

. Whether ...[text shortened]... ncept of God if you're willing enough to consider them.

Could you please enlighten me...[/b]

The one that believes in the Big Bang puts his faith in dirt.

In your opinion.

Originally posted by Soothing
I can not enlighten you. I think enlightment is a strong word for something as vague as the subject of universe and how it came to existence. I can give you a few questions to ponder, though:

1) Everything we see, hear and experience are based on the principal that everything is created at one time or another. Explain how God can always have existed.
2) ...[text shortened]... creation) is a little more fantasy, than a theory based on facts that we can observe around us.

1) Everything we see, hear and experience are based on the principal that everything is created at one time or another. Explain how God can always have existed.

Ok lets look at it in this way: Everything that has a beginning has a cause. The universe has a begining. Therefore the universe has a cause. God, by definition is eternal, meaning that he has no begining and no end. Thus God, unlike the universe, does not need a cause, and is in turn the cause of the universe. This is accepted by faith.

2) If we consider that God really did create the heavens and the earth in seven days, how do you suppose he went about doing that?

God, by defintion is omnipotent. Thus this is no problem whatsoever.

3) Exactly where in heaven is God? I mean I've travelled through the skies in an airplane many times and there was no God sitting on a cosy cloud (you could produce an ad hoc, stating that God is not really in heaven, or he is there in a form we cannot sense, but be careful...)

Heaven is very, very far away. I suggest you read the book, "Visions of Heaven and Hell", written by John Bunyan, if you want to have an idea what Heaven is like.

4) When you say that you've experienced God somehow, isn't it possible (in a world full of mysteries) that you're sort of hallucinating? (Don't mean to offend you, just ponder the question.)

I somehow don't think so... God has set me free from the bondage of sin. I speak to God and He answers me. I have often prayed and God has answered my prayers. Each time I read the Bible I experience God speaking to my heart through the Holy Spirit. There are lots of other things I could share with you...

5) How did Jesus split the sea? Isn't it all possible, that the followers of Jesus just couldn't admit he was wrong, and they decided to make a cult of it all?

Please excuse my ignorance, but where did Jesus split the sea?

If I accept everything in the bible as true, and that there is a God, and that supernatural things happen (they're not in any way explainable as having natural causes), then I would have to accept the possibility that there are trolls and all kinds of things we cannot detect.

Sure. But the difference is that you feel (detect) God speaking to you. The same cannot be said about trolls etc.

I'm not a complete stranger to that idea. In fact, magicians can easily make us miss things around us, so if God exists, why can't he elude us?

He can in fact. God says in his word that His arm is not too short to save us and his ear not too deaf to hear us but our sins have built a wall of separation around us.

Originally posted by dj2becker
1) Everything we see, hear and experience are based on the principal that everything is...God says in his word that His arm is not too short to save us and his ear not too deaf to hear us but our sins have built a wall of separation around us.

...Thus God, unlike the universe, does not need a cause, and is in turn the cause of the universe. This is accepted by faith.

Fair enough...

God, by defintion is omnipotent. Thus this is no problem whatsoever.

🙂

Heaven is very, very far away. I suggest you read the book, "Visions of Heaven and Hell", written by John Bunyan, if you want to have an idea what Heaven is like.

Sounds like ad hoc, to me. Used to be that God was in heaven, period.

God has set me free from the bondage of sin. I speak to God and He answers me. I have often prayed and God has answered my prayers. Each time I read the Bible I experience God speaking to my heart through the Holy Spirit. There are lots of other things I could share with you

And it's not at all possible you're imagining this?

Please excuse my ignorance, but where did Jesus split the sea?

No, please forgive my ignorance. It was Moses who apparently split the sea with his stick... Point remains though.

Sure. But the difference is that you feel (detect) God speaking to you. The same cannot be said about trolls etc.

Some people claim they can hear all sorts of voices in their heads. And see things. What's so different from that and seing, hearing God?

Originally posted by dj2becker

True. That is why I said that with matters of origin it is a matter of faith. I put my faith in God. The one that believes in the Big Bang puts his faith in dirt.

How about the many people who believe in a Creator AND in the Big Bang?

The "Big Bang" is a fantastic and hugely plausible explanation for God's mechanism of Creation... why do you expend so much time and energy trying to debunk it?

Is it because you think that if you can refute the Big Bang, it proves there is a Creator? Why need proof? As you've stated, it's a matter of faith...

Originally posted by PawnCurry


The "Big Bang" is a fantastic and hugely plausible explanation for God's mechanism of Creation... why do you expend so much time and energy trying to debunk it?

Further, if the Big Bang wasn't God's creation mechanism, then what was? Does dj2 really believe that God literally vocalized the universe into existence piecemeal?

Originally posted by Soothing
...Thus God, unlike the universe, does not need a cause, and is in turn the cause of the universe. This is accepted by faith.

Fair enough...

God, by defintion is omnipotent. Thus this is no problem whatsoever.

🙂

Heaven is very, very far away. I suggest you read the book, "Visions of Heaven and Hell", written by John Bunyan, of voices in their heads. And see things. What's so different from that and seing, hearing God?

Sounds like ad hoc, to me. Used to be that God was in heaven, period.

I didn't say he wasn't. All I mean to say is that you probably won't see Heaven while sitting in an Airplane. 😉

And it's not at all possible you're imagining this?

You could think so for sure, I understand that. But do you think that simply imagining something can set a drug adict free from drugs?

No, please forgive my ignorance. It was Moses who apparently split the sea with his stick... Point remains though.

Sure. That is only one of the many miracles that happened in the Bible. There are still many happening today. If you don't believe me you are welcome to visit me on our Mission Station and see for yourself.

Some people claim they can hear all sorts of voices in their heads. And see things. What's so different from that and seing, hearing God?

The difference is that if you see, or hear God, you will know it is Him. And I can guarentee you that your life will be radically changed.

Originally posted by PawnCurry
How about the many people who believe in a Creator AND in the Big Bang?

The "Big Bang" is a fantastic and hugely plausible explanation for God's mechanism of Creation... why do you expend so much time and energy trying to debunk it?

Is it because you think that if you can refute the Big Bang, it proves there is a Creator? Why need proof? As you've stated, it's a matter of faith...

Until a century ago most of the educated people of the western world took the Biblical account of Creation as a fact. The Biblical account says "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." It is clear from the genealogies of the Bible that this creation must have taken place just a few thousand years ago.

By the 19th century James Hutton and Charles Lyell had popularised the idea of the "Geological time", millions of years and purely natural process replacing any idea of divine intervention. This changed the outlook of the civilised world on the whole question of origins. The philosophers and scientists began to seek an explanation in purely natural processes.

A point that must be realised is that this is not scientific. Science as Mendelev, Mach and Einstein pointed out, deals with what can be measured, everything else is speculation. Recorded history goes back approximately five thousand years. No scientists can go back in time to take measurements of what happened bofore that, so when scientist make statements about anything that happened more than five thousand years ago they are dealing with speculation. The current speculation on origins is known as the "Big Bang theory" which is not at all compatible with the Biblical account as it needs about 15 billion years to materialise.

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]Sounds like ad hoc, to me. Used to be that God was in heaven, period.

I didn't say he wasn't. All I mean to say is that you probably won't see Heaven while sitting in an Airplane. 😉

And it's not at all possible you're imagining this?

You could think so for sure, I understand that. But do you think that simply imagining somethin ...[text shortened]... God, you will know it is Him. And I can guarentee you that your life will be radically changed.[/b]

I didn't say he wasn't. All I mean to say is that you probably won't see Heaven while sitting in an Airplane. 😉

Funny. I thought heaven was where clouds are floating about. My mistake 😉

Originally posted by dj2becker
Until a century ago most of the educated people of the western world took the Biblical account of Creation as a fact. The Biblical account says "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." It is clear from the genealogies of the Bible that this creation must have taken place just a few thousand years ago.

By the 19th century James Hutton a ...[text shortened]... t at all compatible with the Biblical account as it needs about 15 billion years to materialise.

You are steady in your beliefs if nothing else. I give you that. 🙂

Originally posted by dj2becker
so when scientist make statements about anything that happened more than five thousand years ago they are dealing with speculation.

LOL.

Suppose a scientist ponders this question: on the day before Adam was created, a piece of fruit from the tree of knowledge detached from its branch on the tree. Did it fall toward the ground or levitate in the air?

Are you saying that any answer is nothing more than speculation?

Originally posted by Soothing
[b]I didn't say he wasn't. All I mean to say is that you probably won't see Heaven while sitting in an Airplane. 😉

Funny. I thought heaven was where clouds are floating about. My mistake 😉[/b]

Sure. It might be confusing. In English the sky can be refered to as "the heavens". The place where God stays is known as "Heaven". They are totally different places. 😉

Originally posted by Soothing
You are steady in your beliefs if nothing else. I give you that. 🙂

It helps if your beliefs are built on a rock. 🙂

To recap:

1) The Big Bang (a moniker placed on the theory by an early opponent of it) is not an explosion, but an expansion of space-time itself. Nothing can "fly out" of the "explosion" as that would mean it would leave the universe itself;

2) A photon is an elemantary particle travelling at the speed of light. It does not and cannot have a temperature;

3) The Big Bang theory does not even attempt to explain the "creation" of matter; it holds that all matter (and everything else) was at a primordial singularity. If people want to speculate on what "created" the singularity, that's fine with the proponents of the Big bang theory but it ain't science.

dj2becker has been told these simple facts many times. He remains woefully ignorant because he chooses to be in the apparent belief that his God wants him to be stupid. Bully for him, he's doing a fine job of accomplishing such a lofty mission.