Originally posted by Nemesio
Originally posted by The Chess Express
No, you are not following the stream. Jesus is remarkable because of the purpose that God sent him to earth. He is remarkable for what he accomplished, and for what he continues to accomplish. The miracles are a big part of that. You don’t accept this, and so your understanding of the truth is limited to your human ...[text shortened]... expect to
make progress, for the Bible has become to you as an idol, a golden calf.
Nemesio[/b]
Actually, it seems that it is your understanding that is limited by your lack of understanding of logic. For example:
Jesus performed miracles.
Honi the Circle-Drawer performed miracles.
Apollonius of Tyana performed miracles.
Eleazar the exorcist performed miracles.
http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~dfalk/courses/jesus/miracles.htm
http://www.moshereiss.org/christianity/02_tradition/02_tradition.htm
Do the miracles mean that they are famous? No. What does? What distinguishes Jesus from Apollonius? You tell me.
This answer will do. If you can’t figure it out with logic then so be it.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
No, you are not following the stream. Jesus is remarkable because of the purpose that God sent him to earth. He is remarkable for what he accomplished, and for what he continues to accomplish. The miracles are a big part of that. You don’t accept this, and so your understanding of the truth is limited to your human logic.
LOL! We are at war because we are protecting our financial interests. Religion wasn't cited as the major factor for going to war and it remains a side issue for most people (except chancremechanic). The fact is Islam has nothing to do with what motivates terrorists. They are fanatics, not Moslems, and the vast majority of the Moslem population affirms this.
You must not be keeping up on world events. Islam is a religion. Whether Islam teaches violence or not it is being used to brainwash tens of thousands. Where do you think the term “religious fanatic” comes from? Have you heard of 9/11 yet? The Taliban? Osama Bin Laden? The Holy land? Afghanistan? They’re not very logical so I can see how they would escape your attention.
I see lots of travesties being effected in the name of Christianity (I listed some above) such as hate crimes against homosexuals and the murder of abortion doctors.
Christians mostly demonstrate peacefully. There are exceptions of coarse. With 2 billion followers not all are saints. Still, there is no comparison between the Islam of the middle east and Christianity of the west in terms of violence. Christians don’t live under an oppressive dictatorship that forces their fanatical interpretation of religion down their throats every day, or financially rewards the families of suicide bombers.
Miracles are magic tricks to get people to believe something that they should believe without them. For example, if Jesus reeeeeeeeeeealy wanted to prove to people He was the Son of God such that no person in their right mind would ever, ever, ever, EVER disbelieve it, he could appear right now in Times Square do a few healings, turn water into wine, and float up to heaven. That would close the matter now and forever.
That would not produce the type of followers that God wants. I don’t expect you to understand this.
But Jesus's point was that blessed are the people who have not seen and still believe. That is, the miracles were just ways to get people's attention because people tend to pay more attention to their body than their soul. Then, after the miracles came the teaching. Without the teaching, the miracles are just party tricks. But, without the miracles, the teachings remains a profound reflection of the Divine Will.
To believe the way that Jesus wants us to believe is to believe in the miracles that he performed as well as his teachings, particularly the crucifixion. This is part of what Jesus meant when he said that. This is why you don’t believe in Jesus, and this is why you think that it’s necessary to discredit him.
John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.
Believing in the miracles is essential to the teachings of Jesus. Why don’t you try believing even though you haven’t seen? Rather than focus on morals or try to logically refute the miracles and Jesus’ work here, why not focus on your afterlife.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
The miracles that Jesus performed form a foundation for many peoples faith. You somehow claim that the crucifixion was unremarkable and/or irrelevant. This shows just how little you understand of Christianity.
You have demonstrated a lack of understanding of Christianity repeatedly. When you make foolish accusations like I don't understand it
You don’t understand it. How can you? The crucifixion is essential to Christianity, not your interpretations of the morals. The morals that Jesus teaches are important, but they’re not the half of it. Jesus’ God given mission on this earth is what’s important. This includes the crucifixion and all that it entails, as well as the many other miracles.
Yes, the miracles provided the attention-getter for people. St John 10:38 and 14:11 demonstrate this. They got people's attentions because people were too focused on themselves and their flesh to attend to the content of Jesus's teaching. But, once they got passed the corporial magic and started focusing on matters of spiritual healing, then they started to get what Christianity is all about.
Consider I Cor 13:1-4. The ability to do great earthly things but never touching the spiritual lives of people is a meaningless quality. But, to touch someone spiritually is greater than any act of the corporeal.
This is not exactly what Paul is saying here, but it’s interesting that you would make this point after suggesting something like “he could appear right now in Times Square do a few healings, turn water into wine, and float up to heaven.” You just refuted your own point there. The reason why miracles are not as important as a persons spiritual state is the same reason why Jesus doesn’t do this.
BTW, how do you know that Jesus doesn’t perform miracles in the lives of Christians every day? There are numerous accountants of everyday miracles. The media is full of them. A public display like what you described would be rather disgusting in my opinion. Who are you to suggest that Jesus make a side show of God? What Jesus did 2000 years ago got the ball rolling. Now it is up to us to do our part.
Answers are false when one can show the method of arguing is flawed. The starting point of this thread -- that there were four people crucified with Jesus -- is an excellent example. The assertion is based on an utterly flawed understanding of Greek in an effort to preserve the truism that the Bible cannot contain any error of fact (when this
can be easily proven false).
You’re logic is flawed if you think that the number of people crucified with Jesus makes any difference in regards to Christianity.
If you are saying that belief in God entails that I must be willing to concede that 2+2=5, then all you're doing is saying that religion is like Orwell's 1984.
If belief in God entails the denial of logic, then God is indeed a pervert, for He created a logical universe.
I would say that you are perverted with arrogance if you think that your logic can ever explain God. God has to be experienced not talked about. Try logically explaining colors to a blind person, or the taste of a banana to somebody who has never tried one.
Logic can be used to paint any picture, most of which are wrong. Do you really expect to explain one such as Jesus who lived 2000 years ago through your logic?
You said it yourself: Nothing I say or do will ever convince you that there are literal errors in the Bible.
What I said was that you’ll never be able to discredit Jesus. Typical that you would misinterpret what I say.
By your own admission, you can never expect to make progress, for the Bible has become to you as an idol, a golden calf.
You don’t have the foggiest idea what the Bible is. It is you who worship the words but not the author, the morals but not the substance. The Bible is far more of a golden calf to you.