@sonship saidFirstly, to answer your first question, "Are you worried that we are unworthy and do not deserve such?"
But, of course, you are free to post as you see fit. Just like the rest of us.
Thankyou.
Now as promised here is a question for you.
Think on it and give me your reply when you are ready.
Question: [i]"Why should we NOT be deified? It is not because of OUR righteousness God does His work in us. It is because of Jesus Christ as our right ...[text shortened]... 't deserve ANY of what Christ is to us and does for us!
So, why should we NOT be deified?
I don't "deserve" salvation much less all that goes with it. Not "worried" either because neither does anyone else.
I've been redeemed!
Second question, "Why should we NOT be deified?"
Because the Bible doesn't teach it? Because your argument isn't convincing? Because you're the only human being that I've ever heard assert the idea? Because the Holy Spirit isn't giving me a sense of it supernaturally? Because it has the sound of man in it? Because it is a distraction away from thousands of other truths contained in the scriptures that God wants me to learn? Because it just sounds wrong on every level? Because it hyper-spiritualizes the simple teaching of scripture relative to who we are "in Christ"? Because there's no specific scriptural evidence that speaks directly and unequivocally to the idea of "deification"? Because the idea of deification has to be squeezed and twisted out of the very clear text? Must I go on?
There won't be anyone "casting" their crowns before our throne in eternity.
Firstly, to answer your first question, "Are you worried that we are unworthy and do not deserve such?"
I don't "deserve" salvation much less all that goes with it. Not "worried" either because neither does anyone else.
This answer helps the discussion imo.
Here you agree that there are somethings which accompany redemption.
And you agree that in ourselves none of these additional aspects of salvation
AND redemption itself are deserved by us.
Up to this point we agree at least on two points.
1.) God's redemption is of His grace and undeserved by us.
2.) There are other additional blerssings along with redemption none of which we deserved. By God's grace they are ours and not of our deserving.
On both points I am in complete harmony of agreement with you.
To God be the glory.
I've been redeemed!
Amen.
Through the grace of God we have been wonderfully redeemed.
Second question, "Why should we NOT be deified?"
Because the Bible doesn't teach it? Because your argument isn't convincing?
Because you're the only human being that I've ever heard assert the idea?
Stated as a question with "Because . . . ?" I would say this is not too adaquate a reason. I am not "the only human being" to assert the idea.
The Greek Orthodox denomination for centuries has believed in the equivalent in many aspects which they called theosis. The basic idea of divinization of the saved through being brought into such a oneness with the saving God.
My opinion is that respectfully, your first reason isn't too strong.
Because the Holy Spirit isn't giving me a sense of it supernaturally?
You're second reason, also stated as a question, could be true.
However, it leaves room for the potentiality that you could in the future sense
of the Holy Spirit of its truthfulness.
And it could be that I might in the future feel the Holy Spirit wants some of us
to change our minds about this.
I think this is a "time will then tell" matter.
One of either of us could change in our feeling of the Holy Spirit.
Thanks.
Because it has the sound of man in it?
Now here, also stated in question form, I would say that it is not the first time that such a reasoning is held. For a long time redemption through the blood of Christ had to some clerical class "the sound of man in it"
Redemption which is based on Justification and that by FAITH was not only not understood, not believed, and actually suppressed by the clerical class of religious heirarchy. It was suspicioned as having a sound to it not of the Catholic Church's recognition of approval. There was a Reformation because some ideas thought merely to be human desires were creeping into the orthodoxy of approved dogmatics.
My challenge would be to try to show you that propertly understood, this deification is there in the oracles of God in the New Testament. Maybe I cannot do that adaquately. But that would be the challenge.
I say it IS there (not in mere human opinion) but is among things that did not even enter into man's heart that God has prepared for them who love Him.
"But as it is written, Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard and which have not come up in man's heart; things which God has prepared for those who love Him." (1 Cor. 2:9)
Things including redemption and other things accompanying that have not even come up in man's heart, I would say. And to this limitation to what man has ever conceived Paul continues in the next sentence -
"But to us God has revealed them through the Spirit, for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God." (v.10)
I have been trying to show you that God through the Spirit has revealed such things to the writers of the New Testament. Albeit, I have not yet been able to convince you of this.
We may still try to convince you of this.
If some of us could be convinced perhaps others could as well.
However, if deification is truly a process in which we are, only time will cause it to be evident to everyone. I think this is the case. It is only the definitions and word usages are not agreed upon among us all now.
"Jesus Christ . . . When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed (because our testimony to you was believed) in that day." ( See 2 Thess. 1:8 - 10)
WHAT will be "marveled at" and His glorification in us His saints, I would say, can be called deification. It is only that the word deification has fallen out of favor with some. And others are suspicious that its usage is more just human opinion devoid of biblical conformation.
It some brethren choose not use such a word today, I am not that concerned. Christ living in a hidden way in His saints will be manifested in divine glory. And He will be marveled at by ourselves and others at the vast extent of WHY He redeemed us.
Because it is a distraction away from thousands of other truths contained in the scriptures that God wants me to learn?
It is possible.
However that may not necessarily mean deification is not true.
I agree that it could be a distraction to think too much on it when other truths
of God you feel need more strenghthening.
That could go for me also.
That is possibly a matter of PREMATURE spiritual knowledge and not
necessarily WRONG spiritual knowledge.
Because it just sounds wrong on every level?
Well, you have to admit that to some here that God exists at all - "sounds wrong on every level."
That God became a man in Jesus Christ also "sounds wrong on every level" to some who have been arguing here for years.
That God has made Christ our righteousness that no one of us could boast but only glory in the Lord Himself also sounds wrong on every level to some here who at least have some familiarity with the letter of the Bible.
I have tried to show you that considering many many passages it should be considered sounding RIGHT on a number of levels. I don't guarantee that I will be able to show you that it sounds RIGHT on many levels of what is written in Scripture.
Because it hyper-spiritualizes the simple teaching of scripture relative to who we are "in Christ"?
Many passages, if you really examine in faith WHAT IS SAID, you would see there is often UNDER-APPRECIATION of them. And when thier actual significance is emphasized this comes accross to some as "hyper-spiritualizing."
Of the word of God - "We will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is" (1 John 3:2) I think is an astounding promise. But others dull of hearing perhaps, might ask "Why are you hyper-spiritualizing this?"
To some that the Spirit of God within is springing up into a fountain of eternal life (John 4:14) and without will have the redeemed "swallowed up by [God's] life" ( 2 Cor. 5:4) are astounding climaxes to salvation.
Others may puzzle why such matters are marveled at. Why "hyper-spiritualize" this? They might ask in puzzlement. They may reason "Look, we are going to heaven, that's all. Don't distract us with hyper-spiritualizing sentences in the New Testament."
One Christian's "hyper-spiritualizing" could be another Christian's amazement at the implications of what is promised there in God's word.
Anyway, they are both beloved brothers in the Body of Christ.
I am not totally unsympathetic to a brothers saying "Better to not use the term
deification. It is problematic."
Maybe to some of us it should be made to be unproblematic to believe and receive in faith what God has in store for His eternal purposes. He has already imparted Himself into the redeemed as their life through regeneration. He is already working to conform them to the image of the Firstborn Son by means of that indwelling divine life welling up within and swallowing up without.
"We're forgiven and are being taken someday to a happy place. That's all. We've known this for years now. Speaking of any deeper significance such as deification, theosis, or divinization is causing problems. Just stick to 'going to heaven' and there will be no problems."
This is the tone that I detect in some quarters. But some have to not always dumb down the Bible to the lowest common level of elementary understanding.
Some of us need to look deeper into what is being said there and to what we are experiencing in Christ's salvation. Where we are actually HEADED must be seen by us eventually.
As Paul prayed - "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him, the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling, and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the operation of the might of His strength, which He caused to operate in Christ in raising Him from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavenlies . . . etc. etc." (Eph. 1:17 -20)
I have to stop here.
I simply tried to quote Revelation 3:8,9 and the message keeps coming up reading - - -
Sorry, your post has been deemed inappropriate and has been automatically removed.
If you would like to protest against this decision, please send feedback and explain in detail why you believe your post should not be removed.
Note: Repeatedly posting inappropriate material could result in a forum posting ban or account termination.
So Josephw, if you would simply look up Revelation 3:8,9 and comment on how you think about that, particularly verse 9 which the website doesn't allow me to write.
PS I agree that the sons of God are never objects of worship. But tell me what you think about that verse. The Recovery Version says "fall prostrate before your feet".
@sonship saidI would caution against spamming threads with multiple posts in such quick succession.
I simply tried to quote Revelation 3:8,9 and the message keeps coming up reading - - -
Sorry, your post has been deemed inappropriate and has been automatically removed.
If you would like to protest against this decision, please send feedback and explain in detail why you believe your post should not be removed.
Note: Repeatedly posting inappropriate material could result in a forum posting ban or account termination.
You have been told this before. Learn already.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
If you cannot refute the substance but dress your failure with whinings about time stamps and conspiracy theories it does little substance wise. I think you're exploiting my practice of breaking up long posts into smaller ones. Your grippings about this won't dignify your incompetence.
My replies are often very lengthy. So I splice them up into smaller posts and that may make the time stamps look like I'm spamming . . . to the sore loser.
Back then to substance:
Josephw, let me see if I can get another rendering of the flagged quotation for you comment.
Revelation 3:9 -
Amplified Bible
Take note, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet and make them know [without any doubt] that I have loved you.
Christian Standard Bible
Note this: I will make those from the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews and are not, but are lying—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and they will know that I have loved you.
Here is some new wine in new wineskins.
The God ordained way and the recovery on God's heart from eteernity.
Speaking and defining God's eternal economy.
Speaking of the Lord's recovery and God's eternal oikonamia (economy).
One Brother Bill Lawson Mid Atlantic conference of the local churches in that area.
Message #1 of 4.
https://machurches.org/audio/22MABC01.mp3