1. Standard memberdj2becker
    Tiger's ghost
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    13 Jul '05 13:551 edit
    I see so many guys out here are infatuated with human reason. You guys seem to worship human reason. I am refering to 'reason' as the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.

    Have you guys ever thought of the possibility that human reason might not be able to explain everything? In fact have any of you guys ever thought about the possible limitations of human reason?

    PS: If your reason evolved from a chemical soup then how can you trust it?
  2. Joined
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    13 Jul '05 14:461 edit
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    I see so many guys out here are infatuated with human reason. You guys seem to worship human reason. I am refering to 'reason' as the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.

    Have you guys ever thought o ...[text shortened]... ur reason evolved from a chemical soup then how can you trust it?
    Atleast reason originating from a "chemical soup "will be unbiased to that created by an attention-seeking nut .
  3. Standard memberWulebgr
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    13 Jul '05 14:49
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Have you guys ever thought of the possibility that human reason might not be able to explain everything? In fact have any of you guys ever thought about the possible limitations of human reason?
    I prefer to think in the absence of reason. It is a better foundation.
  4. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    13 Jul '05 16:43
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    I see so many guys out here are infatuated with human reason. You guys seem to worship human reason. I am refering to 'reason' as the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.

    Have you guys ever thought of the possibility that human reason might not be able to explain everything? In fact have any of you guys ever thought a ...[text shortened]... of human reason?

    PS: If your reason evolved from a chemical soup then how can you trust it?
    There are many limitations to human reason and it is certain that we will never be able to explain everything. But that doesn't mean we should make up some "god" just so we can fill all the gaps in our knowledge. That is an inexcusable degree of intellectual laziness. But even if we accept that we cannot know everything, the furious rate at which we are discovering natural explanations for things formerly attributed to the hand of god indicates that there is a natural explanation for everything out there just waiting to be discovered. We may not learn the cause of everything, but we can confidently infer that there is a logical explanation for it all just beyond our grasp.
  5. Standard memberColetti
    W.P. Extraordinaire
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    13 Jul '05 16:49
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    I see so many guys out here are infatuated with human reason. You guys seem to worship human reason. I am refering to 'reason' as the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.

    Have you guys ever thought of the possibility that human reason might not be able to explain everything? In fact have any of you guys ever thought a ...[text shortened]... of human reason?

    PS: If your reason evolved from a chemical soup then how can you trust it?
    My view is the capacity for logical thought (abstract reasoning) is what it means when the Bible says we a made in the image of God. I think that is what differentiates us from animals - God gave man the ability to reason. So I don't disparage "human reason" because it is often used as a reason for accepting irrational beliefs. I do not think any true Christian beliefs are irrational (the Christian world view does not contain contradictory beliefs) and is completely logic.

    That being said, man in general is flawed, he makes mistakes in reasoning. This is called the noetic effect of sin. Further, man is limited in his capacity for knowing things. Where God knows all true propositions, man's mind is finite. Although man can know some of God's thoughts, he can not know them all.

    The thoughts of God that man can know are logical and non-contradictory. If one holds to any contradictory beliefs, one can be sure that at least one is not of God and is false. Thus the benefit of logic is it can be used as a tool to better understanding of spiritual truths.

    Logic itself can not answer any questions - but in so much as man can reason correctly, he is thinking like God. And if one starts with the correct premises (those from God), then one can understand God better using logic.
  6. Hmmm . . .
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    13 Jul '05 16:53
    Originally posted by rwingett
    There are many limitations to human reason and it is certain that we will never be able to explain everything. But that doesn't mean we should make up some "god" just so we can fill all the gaps in our knowledge. That is an inexcusable degree of intellectual laziness. But even if we accept that we cannot know everything, the furious rate at which we are ...[text shortened]... we can confidently infer that there is a logical explanation for it all just beyond our grasp.
    That is an inexcusable degree of intellectual laziness.

    And lack of existential courage. Which is not to imply that all theists are guilty of either; but certainly the “God of the gaps” variety you refer to. And not that we don’t all fail at times…

    We may not learn the cause of everything, but we can confidently infer that there is a logical explanation for it all just beyond our grasp.

    And even if we can’t…
  7. Standard memberWulebgr
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    13 Jul '05 16:58
    Originally posted by Coletti
    My view is the capacity for logical thought (abstract reasoning) is what it means when the Bible says we a made in the image of God. I think that is what differentiates us from animals - God gave man the ability to reason. So I don't disparage "human reason" because it is often used as a reason for accepting irrational beliefs. I do not think any true ...[text shortened]... arts with the correct premises (those from God), then one can understand God better using logic.
    All this raises the question as to why those we believe themselves filled with the Holy Spirit are particularly prone to errors in reason, far more so than the vast majority of those of us who wallow in our fallen state.
  8. Joined
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    13 Jul '05 17:30
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    I see so many guys out here are infatuated with human reason. You guys seem to worship human reason. I am refering to 'reason' as the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.

    Have you guys ever thought of the possibility that human reason might not be able to explain everything? In fact have any of you guys ever thought a ...[text shortened]... of human reason?

    PS: If your reason evolved from a chemical soup then how can you trust it?
    please see rwingett's above post -- he beat me to the punch.

    in particular, the fact that something may not be fully disclosed to us through reason in no way justifies supernatural solutions, which only lead to more positive assertions that we cannot justify.
  9. Joined
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    13 Jul '05 17:37
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    I see so many guys out here are infatuated with human reason. You guys seem to worship human reason. I am refering to 'reason' as the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.

    Have you guys ever thought of the possibility that human reason might not be able to explain everything? In fact have any of you guys ever thought a ...[text shortened]... of human reason?

    PS: If your reason evolved from a chemical soup then how can you trust it?
    You guys seem to worship human reason.

    how are you defining 'worship', and please also define what types of entities may be 'worshipped'. be careful, lest you either:
    1. completely make a farce of the definition of 'human reason'.
    or
    2. renounce your own faith.

    if you can perform this task successfully, i will admit that i 'worship reason' within the framework you come up with. that won't change the fact that i don't share your belief in a god, so why bother?
  10. Joined
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    13 Jul '05 17:47
    Originally posted by Coletti
    My view is the capacity for logical thought (abstract reasoning) is what it means when the Bible says we a made in the image of God. I think that is what differentiates us from animals - God gave man the ability to reason. So I don't disparage "human reason" because it is often used as a reason for accepting irrational beliefs. I do not think any true ...[text shortened]... arts with the correct premises (those from God), then one can understand God better using logic.
    So I don't disparage "human reason" because it is often used as a reason for accepting irrational beliefs.

    i'm not sure how to respond succintly except to say that, true to form, my head is dizzied by your personal arsenal of self-imposed definitions. something is clearly wrong with your framework if, within that framework, reason is employed as a means to justify that which is irrational.
  11. Standard membertelerion
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    13 Jul '05 18:20
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    I see so many guys out here are infatuated with human reason. You guys seem to worship human reason. I am refering to 'reason' as the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.

    Have you guys ever thought of the possibility that human reason might not be able to explain everything? In fact have any of you guys ever thought a ...[text shortened]... of human reason?

    PS: If your reason evolved from a chemical soup then how can you trust it?
    You realize that you are arguing from reason here right?

    Despite your best efforts, you can't escape reason dj2. You can use bad reasoning, but not no reasoning at all (Unless you just start speaking gibberish.)

  12. Standard memberdj2becker
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    13 Jul '05 19:06
    Originally posted by rwingett
    There are many limitations to human reason and it is certain that we will never be able to explain everything. But that doesn't mean we should make up some "god" just so we can fill all the gaps in our knowledge. That is an inexcusable degree of intellectual laziness. But even if we accept that we cannot know everything, the furious rate at which we are ...[text shortened]... we can confidently infer that there is a logical explanation for it all just beyond our grasp.
    We may not learn the cause of everything, but we can confidently infer that there is a logical explanation for it all just beyond our grasp.

    So you don't think that the dimension that is just beyond your grasp might be part of the supernatural which you might be too blind to see?
  13. Standard memberdj2becker
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    13 Jul '05 19:16
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    please see rwingett's above post -- he beat me to the punch.

    in particular, the fact that something may not be fully disclosed to us through reason in no way justifies supernatural solutions, which only lead to more positive assertions that we cannot justify.
    ...the fact that something may not be fully disclosed to us through reason in no way justifies supernatural solutions, which only lead to more positive assertions that we cannot justify.

    Does this fact in any way justify the non-existance of supernatural solutions?
  14. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    13 Jul '05 19:31
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    [b]We may not learn the cause of everything, but we can confidently infer that there is a logical explanation for it all just beyond our grasp.

    So you don't think that the dimension that is just beyond your grasp might be part of the supernatural which you might be too blind to see?
    [/b]
    When are you going to make a purely supernatural argument, without resorting to stone age mythology and lol goat herder science.
  15. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    13 Jul '05 19:38
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    [b]...the fact that something may not be fully disclosed to us through reason in no way justifies supernatural solutions, which only lead to more positive assertions that we cannot justify.

    Does this fact in any way justify the non-existance of supernatural solutions?[/b]
    You still haven't made an existential argument for anything supernatural.
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