1. Standard memberHalitose
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    02 Aug '05 05:54
    Is man inherently good, but has been gnarled and warped by societies, cultures and religions to do evil things?

    OR

    Is man inherently evil and been gnarled and warped by societies, cultures and religions to do good things?

    OR

    Is man neutral and been gnarled and blah blah blah to do either good or evil?
  2. Standard memberOmnislash
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    02 Aug '05 05:56
    While I am not sure I agree with any of the three premises, I most agree with the inherantly neutral notion. I would say that man is inherantly a paradox duality, and becomes as he chooses. No more, no less.
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    02 Aug '05 05:56
    Or, are good and evil man-made concepts?
  4. Standard memberHalitose
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    02 Aug '05 08:43
    Hmmm... Anything to back that up?
  5. Standard memberHalitose
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    02 Aug '05 08:57
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    No, chimpanzees also distinguish between good and evil. Evil is literally identified with shit.

    Operating formula for human consciousness:

    Pleasure = good
    Pain = bad

    If Pleasure = Good and Pain = Bad, where in the equation is morality, principles, etc? Or are they perhaps man made concepts?
  6. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    02 Aug '05 09:02
    Originally posted by Halitose
    If Pleasure = Good and Pain = Bad, where in the equation is morality, principles, etc? Or are they perhaps man made concepts?
    All animals that live in herds or troops behave in ways that we might call moral and principled. Elephants are a prime example, although baboons are my favourite.

    What we've done is abstract this behaviour into language.

    We don't seem to invent morals or principles. We do invent tools.
  7. Standard memberHalitose
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    02 Aug '05 09:06
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    All animals that live in herds or troops behave in ways that we might call moral and principled. Elephants are a prime example, although baboons are my favourite.

    What we've done is abstract this behaviour into language.

    We don't seem to invent morals or principles. We do invent tools.
    So I'll take it that you say, man is what society makes him?
  8. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    02 Aug '05 09:12
    Originally posted by Halitose
    So I'll take it that you say, man is what society makes him?
    I'd say there's a creative tension between a person's desire and society's requirements.
  9. Standard memberHalitose
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    02 Aug '05 09:29
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    I'd say there's a creative tension between a person's desire and society's requirements.
    So man is a combination of desire for pleasure and the responsibilities required by society?
  10. Standard memberHalitose
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    02 Aug '05 09:39
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    I'd say there's a creative tension between a person's desire and society's requirements.
    But isn't society merely a construct of human thought and tendencies? Where do morals etc come from?
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    02 Aug '05 09:431 edit
    Originally posted by Halitose
    But isn't society merely a construct of human thought and tendencies? Where do morals etc come from?
    Morals are a concept which has grown out of the balance between instinct and productivity. What is an instinctive desire for an individual may not be beneficial for the continuance of the group, so society instills a sense of 'law' (for want of a better word) which may in the short term go against the instincts of the individual, but in the long term benefit the structure and advancement of the group. Over the centuaries this concept has taken on the label of morals.
  12. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    02 Aug '05 09:441 edit
    Originally posted by Halitose
    So man is a combination of desire for pleasure and the responsibilities required by society?
    Human desire--whatever its object--drives human behaviour. Society has distinguished between licit and illicit behaviour.
  13. Standard memberHalitose
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    02 Aug '05 11:311 edit
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Human desire--whatever its object--drives human behaviour. Society has distinguished between licit and illicit behaviour.
    Since society is merely a name for social, physical and philosophical constructs that are merely products of human thought, action, etc; where do these responsibilities and distinguishments arise? If every individual by your definition was only doing good (pleasurable) things, where did this team spirit for the greater good arise? Was it so that more people could benifit from pleasurable things? I just have a problem tying up personal motivation for good and evil, which by your definition are pleasure and pain, to a moral sense where the good thing is not necisserily more pleasurable.
  14. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    02 Aug '05 11:38
    Originally posted by Halitose
    Since society is merely a name for social, physical and philosophical constructs that are merely products of human thought, action, etc; where do these responsibilities and distinguishments arise?
    That's a big "merely" (the second one).

    In the first place, people learn right from wrong in childhood.

  15. Standard memberHalitose
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    02 Aug '05 11:40
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    That's a big "merely" (the second one).

    In the first place, people learn right from wrong in childhood.

    Right and wrong are what your society says they are, right?
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